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So companies in the future will not be able to subscribe to another companies algorithms? How is this a lot different? Tons of companies use credit bureaus to

So companies in the future will not be able to subscribe to another companies algorithms? How is this a lot different? Tons of companies use credit bureaus to get the sameCredit data for pricing loans to people. Remove this and companies will charge consumers lots more since they'll have to face more risk. Tons of companies use prices when setting contracts in a ton of products (metals, food, stocks, and on and on) and those prices are aggregated and curated and that information is sold to all the other companies, thus setting prices. Stop companies from being able to access this pricing, and again consumers will face more costs as each company has to gather/curate it's own pricing. Central banks set prices from which tons of the market sets downstream prices. Is this going to be illegal? Again, blocking this, markets and consumers will face higher costs, same reasons. There are so many companies whose sole purpose is to set pricing so other companies do not have to do it in house that picking out this one seems ludicrous. I fail to see how this is much different except that it's politically popular. Rental property owners are not forced to use it, and even have the traditional market forces not to use it: undercut the algo prices and get more business.

hiddencost 2y ago
It is in fact illegal to collude when setting commodity prices, yes. Having market prices is not the same as colluding.
crooked-v 2y ago
Differences here include a system where landlords are contractually required to supply all their rent data to RealPage and are only allowed to set their own rents if they apply for exemptions first. It's very much designed all the way through to have every effect of mass collusion with the technicality of landlords not directly making agreements with each other about rental prices.
RayVR 2y ago
I think if you read into the details you wouldn’t make such an obviously naive argument. The services provided by companies like realpage remove the ability to negotiate. More importantly, they explicitly manipulate supply coming into the market by removing competition. Take this example: a lease renewal offer is made available, the price is actually higher if the termination date corresponds to relatively high levels of expected supply influx within the existing property (assuming multiple units) AND across other properties in the same geographic area using realpage or its ilk. This allows landlords to theoretically offload the collusion onto companies like realpage, for a price. In a properly functioning market, price discovery is a function of the market, not artificial control exerted by a centralized power with one-sided incentives.
- MengerSponge 2y ago
  Collusion As A Service
- SideQuark 2y ago
  And I can undercut those using the service to attract more tenants. It's still a properly functioning market. Same forces to get tenants vs what tenants will pay. Your arguments apply to nearly every single function one business offloads to another. However that merging of skill has resulted in lower costs, since every vendor doesn't have to pay to gather info from scratch, and can focus on specific value add. Next you'll tell me landlords shouldnt be allowed to use credit reports, since that largely affects price or denials. And that will simply add cost as risk gets pushed back onto consumers. This is no different than lots of existing services, such as credit reports.
vineyardmike 2y ago
> So companies in the future will not be able to subscribe to another companies algorithms? How is this a lot different? A lot different... keep reading more. > Tons of companies use credit bureaus to get the sameCredit data for pricing loans to people Except credit bureaus (1) are a regulated entity. You can't just use credit data freely, and you can't use any data to write loans. Loans can only be priced using approved credit data from a credit bureau. (2) Credit bureaus don't price loans. Full stop. Credit bureaus provide risk analysis, it is up to the underwriter to price that based on the provided risk. They provide a score and details on lines of credit. They don't tell you how to price your credit product, nor if you should provide such a service. > Tons of companies use prices when setting contracts Yes. > in a ton of products (metals, food, stocks, and on and on) Not all of those are "products", some of them are "securities", but yea. Notably, everything you mentioned is a clear commodity. > those prices are aggregated and curated and that information is sold to all the other companies More or less. > thus setting prices Sorta... thus influencing prices but not directly setting them. > Stop companies from being able to access this pricing Companies won't be stopped from accessing pricing data about the market. > consumers will face more costs as each company has to gather/curate it's own pricing. The act of gathering and curating data to make pricing decisions is the exact role of a business. Each business. Except basically under the American image of what communism is, I guess. But every business is responsible for their pricing. > There are so many companies whose sole purpose is to set pricing so other companies do not have to do it in house that picking out this one seems ludicrous. I'm not sure I agree with any of this statement. Few companies dictate pricing to other companies. Everything about this sentence screams collusion. > I fail to see how this is much different except that it's politically popular. Everything about everything is political. The laws are political. The justice system is political. The issues the government fights are political. What would politicians do but politics? > Rental property owners are not forced to use it, and even have the traditional market forces not to use it: undercut the algo prices and get more business. And yet it's quite popular in certain markets, and has demonstrated raising prices. The problem with this assumption is the housing market isn't a great efficient commodity market. Moving has extremely friction cost, supply isn't elastic, and a supplier can't easily make more housing units to trade margin for volume. Some housing markets are extremely tight and expensive. This case is basically text book collusion, wrapped up in a politically relevant bow. As other commenters described, this company requires you to collude by forcing you to use their pricing.
JoshTriplett 2y ago
Looking at your competitors' or suppliers' prices to set your prices is not illegal. Looking at the same inputs that your competitors' are using in order to set your prices is not illegal. Purchasing metrics based on those inputs and using those to set your prices is probably not illegal, depending on what goes into those metrics. Coordinating with your competitors to set your prices is illegal. The line between that is not necessarily a super bright line, but some cases are extremely obvious. One key test: if you undercut your competitors' prices, will you get punished for defecting, other than your competitors potentially lowering their prices in response? If so, you or your competitors or both are probably doing something illegal.
sitkack 2y ago
This phrase, "I fail to see"
darby_nine 2y ago
> So companies in the future will not be able to subscribe to another companies algorithms? I imagine only the anti-competitive ones.

hiddencost 2y ago

It is in fact illegal to collude when setting commodity prices, yes. Having market prices is not the same as colluding.

crooked-v 2y ago

Differences here include a system where landlords are contractually required to supply all their rent data to RealPage and are only allowed to set their own rents if they apply for exemptions first. It's very much designed all the way through to have every effect of mass collusion with the technicality of landlords not directly making agreements with each other about rental prices.

RayVR 2y ago

I think if you read into the details you wouldn’t make such an obviously naive argument. The services provided by companies like realpage remove the ability to negotiate. More importantly, they explicitly manipulate supply coming into the market by removing competition. Take this example: a lease renewal offer is made available, the price is actually higher if the termination date corresponds to relatively high levels of expected supply influx within the existing property (assuming multiple units) AND across other properties in the same geographic area using realpage or its ilk. This allows landlords to theoretically offload the collusion onto companies like realpage, for a price. In a properly functioning market, price discovery is a function of the market, not artificial control exerted by a centralized power with one-sided incentives.

MengerSponge 2y ago
Collusion As A Service
SideQuark 2y ago
And I can undercut those using the service to attract more tenants. It's still a properly functioning market. Same forces to get tenants vs what tenants will pay. Your arguments apply to nearly every single function one business offloads to another. However that merging of skill has resulted in lower costs, since every vendor doesn't have to pay to gather info from scratch, and can focus on specific value add. Next you'll tell me landlords shouldnt be allowed to use credit reports, since that largely affects price or denials. And that will simply add cost as risk gets pushed back onto consumers. This is no different than lots of existing services, such as credit reports.

vineyardmike 2y ago

> So companies in the future will not be able to subscribe to another companies algorithms? How is this a lot different? A lot different... keep reading more. > Tons of companies use credit bureaus to get the sameCredit data for pricing loans to people Except credit bureaus (1) are a regulated entity. You can't just use credit data freely, and you can't use any data to write loans. Loans can only be priced using approved credit data from a credit bureau. (2) Credit bureaus don't price loans. Full stop. Credit bureaus provide risk analysis, it is up to the underwriter to price that based on the provided risk. They provide a score and details on lines of credit. They don't tell you how to price your credit product, nor if you should provide such a service. > Tons of companies use prices when setting contracts Yes. > in a ton of products (metals, food, stocks, and on and on) Not all of those are "products", some of them are "securities", but yea. Notably, everything you mentioned is a clear commodity. > those prices are aggregated and curated and that information is sold to all the other companies More or less. > thus setting prices Sorta... thus influencing prices but not directly setting them. > Stop companies from being able to access this pricing Companies won't be stopped from accessing pricing data about the market. > consumers will face more costs as each company has to gather/curate it's own pricing. The act of gathering and curating data to make pricing decisions is the exact role of a business. Each business. Except basically under the American image of what communism is, I guess. But every business is responsible for their pricing. > There are so many companies whose sole purpose is to set pricing so other companies do not have to do it in house that picking out this one seems ludicrous. I'm not sure I agree with any of this statement. Few companies dictate pricing to other companies. Everything about this sentence screams collusion. > I fail to see how this is much different except that it's politically popular. Everything about everything is political. The laws are political. The justice system is political. The issues the government fights are political. What would politicians do but politics? > Rental property owners are not forced to use it, and even have the traditional market forces not to use it: undercut the algo prices and get more business. And yet it's quite popular in certain markets, and has demonstrated raising prices. The problem with this assumption is the housing market isn't a great efficient commodity market. Moving has extremely friction cost, supply isn't elastic, and a supplier can't easily make more housing units to trade margin for volume. Some housing markets are extremely tight and expensive. This case is basically text book collusion, wrapped up in a politically relevant bow. As other commenters described, this company requires you to collude by forcing you to use their pricing.

JoshTriplett 2y ago

Looking at your competitors' or suppliers' prices to set your prices is not illegal. Looking at the same inputs that your competitors' are using in order to set your prices is not illegal. Purchasing metrics based on those inputs and using those to set your prices is probably not illegal, depending on what goes into those metrics. Coordinating with your competitors to set your prices is illegal. The line between that is not necessarily a super bright line, but some cases are extremely obvious. One key test: if you undercut your competitors' prices, will you get punished for defecting, other than your competitors potentially lowering their prices in response? If so, you or your competitors or both are probably doing something illegal.

sitkack 2y ago

This phrase, "I fail to see"

darby_nine 2y ago

> So companies in the future will not be able to subscribe to another companies algorithms? I imagine only the anti-competitive ones.