6 ms·

16GB of RAM Could Be the New Minimum in Apple's Upcoming M4 Macs

37 points by doener 2y ago

jfarlow 2y ago
Clearly RAM-stingy Apple has found a use for RAM - almost certainly in loading local LLMs. Llama 8G loads and runs pretty well on the new M-series Macs with a reasonable amount of RAM.
- okdood64 2y ago
  Does it run well with 16gb?
  - layer8 2y ago
    It even runs fairly well on the 8 GB base model.
    - quitit 2y ago
      There's swaths of users out there whose entire computing needs are served by smartphones and tablets. So it's always struck me as a bit arrogant that people on here say that they shouldn't offer the 8gb base model, even though it runs well and there are plenty of people who are served by that computer. I don't understand why should basic users, schools and colleges need for pay more for mac systems just because a bigger number would please a few people in a chat room somewhere? It's disconnected from reality. It's also clear that they haven't ever tried using one of these computers. There's plenty of head to head comparisons between the 8gb and 16gb m3 models online and the conclusion is always the same: basic users don't need to buy the $200 ram upgrade, but if they're planning on running 20+ tabs in Lightroom or rendering high res output in Final Cut Pro then there are nice speed gains with the 16gb model. It seems to me that people forking out $120 a year for Lightroom, or a few hundred for FCP are probably not struggling to pay for a once off $200 ram upgrade. While I'm not suggesting that the $200 ram upgrade is value for money, the pricing comparisons given on here aren't ever genuine comparisons anyway. The performance of on-chip unified memory isn't comparable to popping in a few rock-bottom priced DIMMs.
nothercastle 2y ago
Probably the best thing to come from AI is more than by ram in hardware.
akmittal 2y ago
About time. It's embarrassing when most pro phones come with >8GB of RAM. But Mac's start at 8 and calculates some alien math for RAM upgrade
- paxys 2y ago
  Even more embarrassing that you can't upgrade the RAM yourself with 5 minutes of time and a screwdriver.
  - practicemaths 2y ago
    Why would an Apple user ever want to do that? Obviously Apple knows better.
    - thejazzman 2y ago
      I don't think that's a typical opinion of Apple, like, at all. It's by far the most sustained criticism the company has ever had with many other criticisms stemming from the same fundamental goal of upcharging and future sales
      - g42gregory 2y ago
        I think that was sarcasm...
  - steelbrain 2y ago
    FWIW, It's all about tradeoffs. I've got a bunch of mini-pcs running Ryzen APUs lying around, some of them have SO-DIMM DDR5 and others have LPDDR5. The former is user-changable and the latter isn't. The latter allows much higher frequencies that measurably increases the fps in games.
tiltowait 2y ago
I've often felt Apple's stinginess in the RAM department would bite them at some point. I'm not happy to be proven wrong, but I do feel vindicated. Sometimes people will reply to this saying it's not a problem, because Apple is more than happy to take your upgrade money. They are, yes, but that's not to say there aren't also problems: not every customer will upgrade, and even those who do upgrade might badmouth the company, which might make friends and family less likely to buy an Apple product. I'm also not convinced Apple likes to disrupt their customers' usual purchase cycle, as that introduces uncertainty in their financial projections to shareholders.
- lupire 2y ago
  Vindicated how? This news doesn't change the history of past laptops. Apple spent 3 years selling laptops where the keys fell off the keyboards. The don't care about RAM complaints. Their market is "wants prettier than Windows". Apple products are extremely popular, and they use RAM (now soldered RAM) as a hardware dongle to discriminate on price by how much computing power a user needs. It's a mini "App Store"-like monopoly built into the motherboard.
  - wpm 2y ago
    Their market wants “works better than Windows” too. What an unbelievably tired cliche. Sure, aesthetics play a part in purchasing but there are PC laptops with similar aesthetics and build quality for around the same price and same lack of upgradability. Next, you’ll say with a smirk, that they need their Mac laptop to write their novel in a coffee shop.
    - wannacboatmovie 2y ago
      > Next, you’ll say with a smirk, that they need their Mac laptop to write their novel in a coffee shop. To be truthful, that's about all they're good for. Macs are media consumption appliances. If the market wanted "better than Windows" as you claim, the entirety of the corporate world would be running Macs, which they don't. They have near-zero market share outside of a few Silicon Valley companies who do so to stave off the nerd revolt. Audio/video production has mostly moved back to Windows. Industrial automation, the PCs running every radio and TV station, every NASA launch - all Windows, some Linux, zero Mac. Hell, Apple was running Windows in their own factories (via Boot Camp). Apple designs their hardware using Cadence Allegro and Siemens NX. I'd like to meet the guy that has to admit "I'm a Windows server admin...at Apple." Developers also love them as a $3000 terminal emulator into a Linux machine, so they can code. In a coffee shop.
throawayonthe 2y ago
[dead]
theappsecguy 2y ago
Watch this be accompanied by a price increase…
- linotype 2y ago
  The original base model Mac Mini was $824 in 2005 (in 2024 dollars). The current base model at Best Buy is $500. The price on the Mac Mini now is significantly cheaper and I’m not even sure if the performance is remotely comparable.
ksec 2y ago
I was expecting only 12GB Given Apple's stringent control on BOM Cost. And moves in 24 and 36GB rather than the 16 multiples. But happen to be wrong this time around. Given how much margin Apple's saves on using M4 getting 16GB baseline shouldn't be much problem.
linotype 2y ago
Now people will complain that 16 GB isn’t enough and 32 GB should be standard. ;)
- kxjdndjxj 2y ago
  Depends heavily on your application. I feel currently 16 GB is on the low side but sufficient for most tasks Thus having this as the base line for a laptop is sufficient, too I personally would hate buying an expensive product I don't know much about being crippled by not selecting an option I did not understand. Having 16 GB for those customers is a win
  - linotype 2y ago
    > I feel currently 16 GB is on the low side but sufficient for most tasks See, they haven’t even announced it and my point is made. :p

37 points by doener 2y ago

Clearly RAM-stingy Apple has found a use for RAM - almost certainly in loading local LLMs. Llama 8G loads and runs pretty well on the new M-series Macs with a reasonable amount of RAM.

okdood64 2y ago
Does it run well with 16gb?
- layer8 2y ago
  It even runs fairly well on the 8 GB base model.
  - quitit 2y ago
    There's swaths of users out there whose entire computing needs are served by smartphones and tablets. So it's always struck me as a bit arrogant that people on here say that they shouldn't offer the 8gb base model, even though it runs well and there are plenty of people who are served by that computer. I don't understand why should basic users, schools and colleges need for pay more for mac systems just because a bigger number would please a few people in a chat room somewhere? It's disconnected from reality. It's also clear that they haven't ever tried using one of these computers. There's plenty of head to head comparisons between the 8gb and 16gb m3 models online and the conclusion is always the same: basic users don't need to buy the $200 ram upgrade, but if they're planning on running 20+ tabs in Lightroom or rendering high res output in Final Cut Pro then there are nice speed gains with the 16gb model. It seems to me that people forking out $120 a year for Lightroom, or a few hundred for FCP are probably not struggling to pay for a once off $200 ram upgrade. While I'm not suggesting that the $200 ram upgrade is value for money, the pricing comparisons given on here aren't ever genuine comparisons anyway. The performance of on-chip unified memory isn't comparable to popping in a few rock-bottom priced DIMMs.

nothercastle 2y ago

Probably the best thing to come from AI is more than by ram in hardware.

akmittal 2y ago

About time. It's embarrassing when most pro phones come with >8GB of RAM. But Mac's start at 8 and calculates some alien math for RAM upgrade

paxys 2y ago
Even more embarrassing that you can't upgrade the RAM yourself with 5 minutes of time and a screwdriver.
- practicemaths 2y ago
  Why would an Apple user ever want to do that? Obviously Apple knows better.
  - thejazzman 2y ago
    I don't think that's a typical opinion of Apple, like, at all. It's by far the most sustained criticism the company has ever had with many other criticisms stemming from the same fundamental goal of upcharging and future sales
    - g42gregory 2y ago
      I think that was sarcasm...
- steelbrain 2y ago
  FWIW, It's all about tradeoffs. I've got a bunch of mini-pcs running Ryzen APUs lying around, some of them have SO-DIMM DDR5 and others have LPDDR5. The former is user-changable and the latter isn't. The latter allows much higher frequencies that measurably increases the fps in games.

tiltowait 2y ago

I've often felt Apple's stinginess in the RAM department would bite them at some point. I'm not happy to be proven wrong, but I do feel vindicated. Sometimes people will reply to this saying it's not a problem, because Apple is more than happy to take your upgrade money. They are, yes, but that's not to say there aren't also problems: not every customer will upgrade, and even those who do upgrade might badmouth the company, which might make friends and family less likely to buy an Apple product. I'm also not convinced Apple likes to disrupt their customers' usual purchase cycle, as that introduces uncertainty in their financial projections to shareholders.

lupire 2y ago
Vindicated how? This news doesn't change the history of past laptops. Apple spent 3 years selling laptops where the keys fell off the keyboards. The don't care about RAM complaints. Their market is "wants prettier than Windows". Apple products are extremely popular, and they use RAM (now soldered RAM) as a hardware dongle to discriminate on price by how much computing power a user needs. It's a mini "App Store"-like monopoly built into the motherboard.
- wpm 2y ago
  Their market wants “works better than Windows” too. What an unbelievably tired cliche. Sure, aesthetics play a part in purchasing but there are PC laptops with similar aesthetics and build quality for around the same price and same lack of upgradability. Next, you’ll say with a smirk, that they need their Mac laptop to write their novel in a coffee shop.
  - wannacboatmovie 2y ago
    > Next, you’ll say with a smirk, that they need their Mac laptop to write their novel in a coffee shop. To be truthful, that's about all they're good for. Macs are media consumption appliances. If the market wanted "better than Windows" as you claim, the entirety of the corporate world would be running Macs, which they don't. They have near-zero market share outside of a few Silicon Valley companies who do so to stave off the nerd revolt. Audio/video production has mostly moved back to Windows. Industrial automation, the PCs running every radio and TV station, every NASA launch - all Windows, some Linux, zero Mac. Hell, Apple was running Windows in their own factories (via Boot Camp). Apple designs their hardware using Cadence Allegro and Siemens NX. I'd like to meet the guy that has to admit "I'm a Windows server admin...at Apple." Developers also love them as a $3000 terminal emulator into a Linux machine, so they can code. In a coffee shop.

throawayonthe 2y ago

[dead]

theappsecguy 2y ago

Watch this be accompanied by a price increase…

linotype 2y ago
The original base model Mac Mini was $824 in 2005 (in 2024 dollars). The current base model at Best Buy is $500. The price on the Mac Mini now is significantly cheaper and I’m not even sure if the performance is remotely comparable.

ksec 2y ago

I was expecting only 12GB Given Apple's stringent control on BOM Cost. And moves in 24 and 36GB rather than the 16 multiples. But happen to be wrong this time around. Given how much margin Apple's saves on using M4 getting 16GB baseline shouldn't be much problem.

linotype 2y ago

Now people will complain that 16 GB isn’t enough and 32 GB should be standard. ;)

kxjdndjxj 2y ago
Depends heavily on your application. I feel currently 16 GB is on the low side but sufficient for most tasks Thus having this as the base line for a laptop is sufficient, too I personally would hate buying an expensive product I don't know much about being crippled by not selecting an option I did not understand. Having 16 GB for those customers is a win
- linotype 2y ago
  > I feel currently 16 GB is on the low side but sufficient for most tasks See, they haven’t even announced it and my point is made. :p