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Pie doesn't need to be original unless you claim it so
- skadamat 2y agoLoved this article and couldn't agree more with Geoffrey's point.
- jacknews 2y agoI agree with the idea that many projects are just fun and stand on that basis, but the analogy doesn't work IMHO. When you bake a pie, it gets eaten, so who cares if it's just like another pie, in fact it's probably great if it is. And the more people baking peach pies, the better! The analogy should be with pie recipes. In that case, your pie recipe really should bring something different to existing ones. It doesn't need to be 'better' necessarily, but if it's essentially identical, there's no real point to the recipe, except for you to practice writing out recipes.
- pif 2y agoI read your comment just after posting mine. You have expressed the concept better than I did.
- Almondsetat 2y agoMy thoughts exactly. The author compared two concepts that exist at two entirely different levels of abstraction and utility.
- manuelmoreale 2y agoI guess that final “except” is the entire point? You do something even if it’s not original or different because it’s fun and good practice for you. Because maybe it is the same recipe with the same ingredients but the end result can still be different. Maybe yours is handwritten and I like your calligraphy, maybe you’re more meticulous and you documented all the steps more in details. It can still be the same recipe. It can still provide the same service and yet there might still be useful differences.
- jacknews 2y agoSo these things are the 'what's different'. As a software example, 'ls' but written in rust. There's of course nothing wrong with re-implementing 'ls' in C with all the same patterns, and sure, that could be fun, and maybe even earn a slither of respect, but no-one is going to care about your project as something useful or interesting, quite rightly.
- manuelmoreale 2y ago> So these things are the 'what's different'. If you consider those part of the recipe then I guess yes. > but no-one is going to care about your project as something useful or interesting, quite rightly. Which is totally fair and I think part of the article argues that there are situations where that's absolutely fine.
- Dylan16807 2y agoThe article isn't just saying it's "absolutely fine" to make software for fun/practice, it's complaining about other people having utility-focused questions and evaluations. Assuming that "show it to your friend" is supposed to be an analogy for more general showing off, reactions like that are plenty reasonable. If it's software nobody is intended to use then that should be made clear up front.
- pif 2y agoPie cannot be duplicated. Even if you're offering me a worse pie than I ate yesterday, either I enjoy yours or I have no pie. Software, on the other side, is duplicated on a whim. If you are not offering me new solutions that I need, I'm not even going to bother looking at it.
- manuelmoreale 2y agoI’m genuinely confused by your comment. Pies can be duplicated. You just grab the same ingredients and follow the same recipe. Same thing happens with software. You grab the same libraries and languages and build the same thing. I think I get what you’re trying to say when it comes to software but sometimes one might switch even if the new software doesn’t offer new solutions.
- raddan 2y agoIt’s not that pie can’t be duplicated, it’s that there are real costs to the duplication. And making pies precisely the same is surprisingly hard (pie is my favorite treat and I make them all the time). Not so with software. Duplication and distribution are essentially free. Copies are perfect replicas. Why not then insist on the best version? Also, with food, the varied experience of slightly different pies is fun (“variety is the spice of life”). Unless I expected variation in my software, I would be extremely annoyed that it did not do what I wanted.
- manuelmoreale 2y agoMaybe I'm wrong—probably am—but isn't the article talking about something else? He's not talking about making a copy of a piece of software as a perfect replica. I think he's talking about coding something that is not conceptually different from something that was already existing.
- Timwi 2y ago> I’m genuinely confused by your comment. I'm not, I get what they're saying. If I want to eat pie, I need to bake one first or find someone to bake it every time. If I want to use a software, I only need to write or find the software once; then I can keep using it indefinitely. Therefore, the common assumption is perfectly justified. Most people who write software do so to create something that isn't already available. That said, I still agree with the post. Justified or not, the assumption is frequently wrong. Coding is fun for its own sake.
- apeescape 2y agoI mean, recreational programming and creating a side project for fun is nice and all, but a peach pie is something you can consume and is thus of interest to anyone who likes peach pies, whereas software that does nothing differently or better than the existing (well-known) solutions is just, well, not interesting to anybody else than the person who wrote it. Kudos to you for writing a generic TODO app, but why should anyone else be excited about it? I'm not sure why we even need to compare baking pies to writing software, it's apples to oranges.
- jagged-chisel 2y agoI think it depends on the motivation of the creator. We, software engineers, don’t celebrate enough that someone is learning the craft. “I made a thing!” Hey, nice! Lots of us have made the thing, so if you want feedback or advice, just let us know! That’s quite different from “I made a thing, and I think I can sell it.” Hey, nice! Lots of us have made the thing so there’s many on the market. What differentiates yours?
- layer8 2y agoI believe the common problem is when creators who submit their work on HN don’t open with what differentiates their version, thus exhibiting a lack of awareness about existing solutions. And there is a cost in attention for HN readers to figure out if there’s anything new and interesting about the work. There is an expectation that HN submissions should be worth the reader’s while.
- jagged-chisel 2y agoI was thinking more broadly when I wrote the comment. I agree about the tighter focus of HN.
- krisoft 2y ago> software that does nothing differently or better than the existing (well-known) solutions is just, well, not interesting to anybody else than the person who wrote it. There can be many reasons. The practical availability or licensing of the work is the most common one. It is great that google has an amazing implementation of whatever state of the art algorithm. It is not much use to anybody else if they can't read the code, or can't build on it. The other practical reason is that people building the thing are building their mastery. You are not going to wake up one day and make a state of the art contribution on your first try. You need to build up your skills to it through a series of steps. This would matter even if all software ever written would be equally available and unencumbered for everyone. But if you want people to push the boundaries of what possible they have to get there first. Do you want someone to be able to bake a beautifully decorated 3 tier wedding cake? That journey starts with them baking a simple sponge cake. Then learning how to put icing on that. Then learning how to make a good cream filling. Then putting simple decoration on. And so on and so on. If you don't let them progress through all these steps and you demand that they bake 3 layer beautifully decorated cakes on their first day then increasingly less and less people will be able to push the state of the art.
- Flop7331 2y agoI like it. We can bike-shed and ackshually the analogy to death, but it's a useful one. How well does this pie scale? Sorry, it's a pie. If you want some, I'm sharing.
- dangsux 2y ago[dead]
- jp57 2y agoAs others have mentioned, a pie is consumable, and thus a good one has value even if it isn't original. But a slight change to the original scenario makes asking about originality much more reasonable: Imagine you write a peach pie recipe over the weekend, and you give a copy of the recipe to your friend. They respond: "Wait, how is this different from every other peach pie recipe that's ever been written? It seems really similar to another recipe I have." That's not an unreasonable answer. When I was in a band, one of the most valuable things my songwriting friends and I did for each other was tell each other when our work sounded like something that was already out there. If you make a new piece of software and offer it to a friend to use, it's not unreasonable for them to ask how it's different from something that's out there already.
- drewcoo 2y ago> "Wait, how is this different from every other peach pie recipe that's ever been written? It seems really similar to another recipe I have." > That's not an unreasonable answer. Pies are not supposed to be unique. Recipes are freely traded. That "friend" is an a-hole.
- jihiggins 2y agoimo, only if it's asked in bad faith. maybe that's just worded poorly, but e.g. "oh, thanks! what'd you do differently with this recipe?" or w/e
- JumpCrisscross 2y agoIf I took the time to develop, write down and share a recipe, I'd welcome that question. Even if it's not original, there is variation among peach pies and I clearly have an opinion on it.
- jajko 2y agoIndeed if that's the response, you either have an acquaintance with 0 emotional intelligence that is by default like an elephant in porcelain shop in relationships, probably move on since its a lifelong effort to even just sustain such friendship. Or its an envious a-hole since such message is clearly denigrating, still lacks basic emotional intelligence, and then just run and don't look back. If I ever saw 2 women commenting each other's efforts like that, there would be a fight soon or at least lifelong hate would have firmly started. Normal response is for example a mix of appreciation of effort, curiosity about uniqueness and methodology, other recipes, etc. One can chip in other attempts and compare, that's how mankind lived till now and its considered normal human interaction (TM). Bad relationships are much worse than no relationships, be it friends or romantic type. Many folks are very afraid of loneliness, but there is strength in it with right mindset for everybody (us introverts thrive in loneliness just sparingly sprinkled with quality human interactions, but others consider it daunting to the point of preferring serious harm)
- wolframhempel 2y agoAside from duplication there's also competition. If you bake for your family, your pie will be appreciated, regardless of its novelty. But if your pie is meant to go onto a supermarket shelf alongside other pies, you need to give the consumer an incentive to choose yours - by making it better and/or different.
- shprd 2y agoYeah, the main difference is software is accessible online so it's competing on a worldwide stage. This make people feel there's an abundance of software and they get picky. This is totally fine from economic perspective. But when it comes to side projects that aren't selling to consumers, there's no reason to bring down someone if you see no value in their work. Especially when they're sharing it for free with no expectations, like most software side projects we see here hosted on GitHub. Look at many show HN, someone sharing their little fun project, then you've some entitled users asking What does this offer over this product of fortune 500 company? Why should I use it? Often the side project still have some advantage but do these people realize how ridiculous and entitled they sound? The author shared a fun project for free, they're not asking for a billion $ investment.
- layer8 2y ago> Especially when they're sharing it for free with no expectations I doubt that most creators sharing their work as a Show HN have no expectations.
- A_Duck 2y agoIt also makes sense for the maker to have some empathy for the chosen audience/recipient What does this person want with your peach pie — why is it relevant to them? What do they get from the interaction
- thro2309 2y ago> The friend has assumed that your goal is to "efficiently" reach the goal of a delicious pie, or perhaps even to create a new kind of pie. But that's not the goal at all! > Baking a pie is a creative act. It's personal, it's inherently delightful, it's an act of caring for others. It's also a craft that one can improve at over time. Just buying the "best" pie would defeat the point. Not sure author realises the irony here. Creating "the pie" is not art. It is not even craft. It is baking ingredients, and people did that bazilions times before.
- aapoalas 2y agoYou seem to have misread "act" as "art."
- thro2309 2y ago[flagged]
- episteme 2y agoIf baking a pie isn't a craft then I don't know what is. Do you believe there is no skill involved with baking a pie?
- kbelder 2y agoMy brother sat with my mother one day, meticulously recording every detail he could while she made a pie crust, filled it, and baked it. All the quantities, how they were combined, temperatures, durations, etc. He still cannot replicate her pies.
- Rodmine 2y agoBetter title would be: Don't show your pie to losers on a website; feed it to the hungry.
- yimmothathird 2y ago[flagged]
- ClumsyPilot 2y agoYes the peasants need to know their place
- sqeaky 2y agoNormally to determine if someone is not cruel and worth being near in general I invite them to a nice restaurant. Then I let them handle most of the interactions with the wait staff. If they are rude or jerks to people they have authority over I stop interacting with them. Thank you for saving me the price of a meal with having to vet you.
- Flop7331 2y agoCareful with that edge, son. Don't want you to cut yourself.
- ulrischa 2y agoA pie is just for enjoy a Snack. Software is mostly for getting work done
- Flop7331 2y ago> Software is mostly for getting work done Hmm... While I try to refrain from picking sides in a beatdown on an analogy, that's an interesting suggestion that seems worth examining. There's a lot of software I use that isn't for getting work done. Even the software that's meant for getting work done doesn't have to be used that way.
- j7ake 2y agoOther analogies that might also work: Playing a classical piece music. You’ll never be anywhere near the top musicians, but people still do it because it’s enjoyable. They also share it with others. Painting: you’re not a professional, but creating and sharing your works is still a joy.
- jdeaton 2y agoSoftware isnt pie. It isnt even food
- asah 2y ago??? is this a troll post? A pie is a physical object which enjoys a barrier to competition by being geographically near the consumer - other pies are not near your mouth. A pie degrades quickly over time - last month's pie is not a competitor to today's pie. A pie is destroyed during consumption - the pie your friend ate cannot be then eaten by you, no matter how delicious they say it was. Software (and especially web/mobile/SaaS) is nothing like pies - your friend eats a delicious piece of software, telecommunicates this to you halfway around the world and you can put down the pie you were eating and instantly eat the same pie as your friend, then tell more friends. Pretty soon, nobody's eating the previous pies.
- Flop7331 2y agoMaybe it's an actor for a nation state intentionally dropping this disinformation as a false flag to distract the humongous brains of HN!!!
- mattgreenrocks 2y agoGoing to skip the analogy, because everyone has tortured it sufficiently already. This is a good point. The comment section implicitly argues for novelty because it seeks a dopamine hit for something new -- after all, that's what people are looking for when they browse an aggregator! However, novel isn't everything even if you get more Internet points for it. Is it original to execute something really well? Some would say yes, and some would say no. Lots of software that has had an outsized impact started out as very similar to other things, with "just" some improvements here and there. And I guarantee you there were over-eager commenters telling people to not be excited because it isn't new enough to them. This isn't arguing for toxic positivity, either. Just a recognition that the bored/cynical users need for novelty is not something that everything listed on the Internet has to fill.
- wnc3141 2y agoNothing from the outset appears that original, in a world of nearly infinite information, when you start. So just do the thing, it will become original in your execution of the thing.
- ReptileMan 2y agoExcept it is not a pie but a shovel. So the question how does it differs from ShovelMaster 3000 that is used on all other construction sites is not unreasonable. And there can be a lot of good answers - it is lighter, it looks cooler, the grip is more ergonomic, it is made of chinesium and cheap and if you are only building a shed - it will get the job done without using the unholy trinity of docker, ansible and terraform, and it will be in your hands in 5 min and not require overnight delivery by amazon. And you can see this here on hnews - when someone shows us something that is entertaining, no asks how it differs from Heroes 3 or Quake. But we do for the next cloud synced postman clone that is on it's way to becoming as worse as Postman when they get the VC money.
- imchillyb 2y ago"How's it different?" is an excellent metric. Why pay you, a person with this as their resume, when I can pay someone with 10 other 'hits' on their resume and their software also does this? Why pay the newb is a great question to ask. The answer to 'How is it different' is a whiteboard interview problem. If the developer cannot immediately extol the virtues of their product, do you want to give them money? Are they confident in their skills? Were they just copying other's recipes? You'll know the answer to that and many other questions the minute the developer has to think and answer this fundamental question. You'll also know if they're full of shit almost immediately. It doesn't matter what the developer's prior relationship to you was. When they hand you software, and expect others to pay for it they need to be asked this question. Their answer will assist them in understanding their product and how to sell it to others.
- samatman 2y agoAt the time I write this reply, the word "pie" shows up 98 times on this thread. The word CRISP? Will show up once, when I hit "add comment". This has brought out the worst of Hacker News in a very obvious way. I suppose it was damn near guaranteed to, but you didn't have to literally every one of you bring a CRISPer to a pie fight. "As a peer reviewer for the CRISP organization (ok, three times) the author is very obviously wrong about pie. It is a moral duty that pie be original work, properly cited, and advance the state of the art. I stopped reading after the second paragraph."
- mouse_ 2y agofood analogies don't work for pretty much anything