5 ms·

It will be most interesting how this applies to teachers, who often have to prepare lessons and mark work outside of hours.

Yodel0914 2y ago
The teacher situation is strange. One the one hand, they often do seem to work outside of school hours on lesson prep and marking. On the other hand, they generally don't work during school holidays (12 weeks/yr). Also, given that most school days here are ~9am to ~3pm, I wonder how much of that "after hours" work actually falls within the standard 40hr work week.
- BLKNSLVR 2y ago
  Like most things, there's a gaping chasm of variance between teachers that are phoning it in and teachers that want to engage their students in learning. I know a teacher who leaves for work at 6:30am, gets home after 5:30pm most nights, cooks dinner for the family, and spends the rest of her evening marking work and preparing lesson plans for the next few days. Then there's preparing reports, which is like a 6-week lead-time task in addition. During holidays she's definitely more relaxed, but still spends an absolute sh*tload of time preparing lessons for next term. She's specifically on one end of the spectrum, but that's also what it takes to get a class of up to 30 students to actually pay attention and make some worthwhile progress at their schooling. She chooses it though, she loves it, she lives for it. I couldn't do it to that degree without going insane.
  - Yodel0914 2y ago
    That's amazing, but all-too rare. I think teachers have a very tough job, and many (most?) of them are not very good it at. My kids have had teachers who constantly shift assignment due dates because they're not ready, half-arse their lesson planning and tell the kids to do the rest at home, and are generally unable to manage a classroom.
    - coldpie 2y ago
      > That's amazing, but all-too rare. No, it's abusive and indicative of a failing system. We should not be celebrating overwork. If a system needs its workers to be doing double- or triple-time to function at the desired level, then the system is not working well and is on its way to failure.
      - BLKNSLVR 2y ago
        I actually think it's both. She would spend that amount of time anyway, because "it's what she does". It would be possible to achieve 90% of her results with maybe 70% of the time and effort that she puts in. But even at 70% it still would run into non-trivial "enforced overtime".
  - IshKebab 2y ago
    I think it's also a lot more work for new teachers since they can't reuse lesson plans. I think it's probably quite possible after a few years to be a good teacher and also not spend all your free time marking and preparing lesson plans... but it's still hard work and underpaid. I'll stick with my overpaid and stress free programming job, thanks!
    - Der_Einzige 2y ago
      A lot of assignments can be partially machine graded, even if they think they can’t be. Teachers are usually luddites though…
      - BLKNSLVR 2y ago
        Not necessarily luddites, but lack having a development team available for potential streamlining. Also the Government Department not setting the industry up to allow such streamlining (with a strong asterisk noting that such streamlining may actually be worse for learning outcomes, no matter how much better it would be for freeing up a teacher's time). This person actually uses ChatGPT to generate report comments "around" the core themes that need to be pointed out in the report. She's said that it's saved a lot of time that would be spent on the "fluff" that wraps around the central message. I think this is one of the perfect use cases for an LLM; "fluff" generation, not the crucial message. "Machine grading" would be something that the "machine" would have to be tuned for, which is Government Department level jurisdiction, and pretty well outside the skill set of teachers in general (I would think).
  - rgblambda 2y ago
    When you say preparing lesson plans, is that like printing out worksheets or is it literally planning out what the lesson is going to be? I'm not a teacher so am obviously missing context, but I don't understand how this part isn't standardised for every teacher following the same curriculum. It would be like asking each individual teacher to write a new textbook every year.
    - Ekaros 2y ago
      Experienced teachers likely have it down. Or can just use whatever was done in previous years. But you have set standards changed every 10-20 years at least. And maybe new textbook that has things in bit different order. Or there is some topical thing. Lesson planning is really looking at book and items there thinking how much time going over it with current group takes and then considering what items or things are needed in addition to reach those goals for this lesson. If you had to make a 1/2 hour presentation/workshop, there is some planning involved even if you can just copy paste the slides and training material.
      - rgblambda 2y ago
        Okay, I get it now. Lesson plans are something that can only be done on the fly and are more about adapting to things outside the control of the teacher e.g. one lesson took longer due to a disruption in the classroom. I was wondering why the people who set the curriculum couldn't just make a year's worth of lesson plans and email them to each teacher. Thanks for the explainer (to everyone who replied).
        gsinclair 2y ago
        Lesson plans are inherently individual to a teacher. So even if a year’s worth of lesson plans was created and shared, and even if I thought they were good, it would still take non-negligible time for me to absorb them and mentally plan how I was going to use them. That’s the tip of the iceberg in my attempt to explain the complexity of teaching.
    - majewsky 2y ago
- sethammons 2y ago
  As a math teacher in the states some years back, I worked 6:30 am to 4pm in the building and from and a couple hours most evenings and usually 3-6 hours both days of the weekend. 70+ hours a week. Any holiday was spent catching up on grading. I often recruited my wife to help grade it was so overwhelming. And summer meant trainings and summer school otherwise the summer was unpaid and as a teacher we desperately needed the money. All in, I averaged three separate weeks (one at Christmas, and one week on either side of summer) a year of stay-cation since we could barely afford food let alone travel. When I transitioned to software, I nearly cut my hours in half and doubled my pay, nearly 4x-ing my effective hourly wage and had my first real vacation; heck, my first time on a plane even.
- notatoad 2y ago
  a 9-3 school day for students means an 8-4 work day for teachers, minimum. that eats up the 40hr week right there, even for a teacher working the bare minimum.
stubish 2y ago
This isn't addressing unpaid hours, just the expectation than your boss or coworkers can communicate with you after hours. Unpaid hours is already illegal. How to enforce that in the education system without it collapsing is the open question.

Yodel0914 2y ago

The teacher situation is strange. One the one hand, they often do seem to work outside of school hours on lesson prep and marking. On the other hand, they generally don't work during school holidays (12 weeks/yr). Also, given that most school days here are ~9am to ~3pm, I wonder how much of that "after hours" work actually falls within the standard 40hr work week.

BLKNSLVR 2y ago
Like most things, there's a gaping chasm of variance between teachers that are phoning it in and teachers that want to engage their students in learning. I know a teacher who leaves for work at 6:30am, gets home after 5:30pm most nights, cooks dinner for the family, and spends the rest of her evening marking work and preparing lesson plans for the next few days. Then there's preparing reports, which is like a 6-week lead-time task in addition. During holidays she's definitely more relaxed, but still spends an absolute sh*tload of time preparing lessons for next term. She's specifically on one end of the spectrum, but that's also what it takes to get a class of up to 30 students to actually pay attention and make some worthwhile progress at their schooling. She chooses it though, she loves it, she lives for it. I couldn't do it to that degree without going insane.
- Yodel0914 2y ago
  That's amazing, but all-too rare. I think teachers have a very tough job, and many (most?) of them are not very good it at. My kids have had teachers who constantly shift assignment due dates because they're not ready, half-arse their lesson planning and tell the kids to do the rest at home, and are generally unable to manage a classroom.
  - coldpie 2y ago
    > That's amazing, but all-too rare. No, it's abusive and indicative of a failing system. We should not be celebrating overwork. If a system needs its workers to be doing double- or triple-time to function at the desired level, then the system is not working well and is on its way to failure.
    - BLKNSLVR 2y ago
      I actually think it's both. She would spend that amount of time anyway, because "it's what she does". It would be possible to achieve 90% of her results with maybe 70% of the time and effort that she puts in. But even at 70% it still would run into non-trivial "enforced overtime".
- IshKebab 2y ago
  I think it's also a lot more work for new teachers since they can't reuse lesson plans. I think it's probably quite possible after a few years to be a good teacher and also not spend all your free time marking and preparing lesson plans... but it's still hard work and underpaid. I'll stick with my overpaid and stress free programming job, thanks!
  - Der_Einzige 2y ago
    A lot of assignments can be partially machine graded, even if they think they can’t be. Teachers are usually luddites though…
    - BLKNSLVR 2y ago
      Not necessarily luddites, but lack having a development team available for potential streamlining. Also the Government Department not setting the industry up to allow such streamlining (with a strong asterisk noting that such streamlining may actually be worse for learning outcomes, no matter how much better it would be for freeing up a teacher's time). This person actually uses ChatGPT to generate report comments "around" the core themes that need to be pointed out in the report. She's said that it's saved a lot of time that would be spent on the "fluff" that wraps around the central message. I think this is one of the perfect use cases for an LLM; "fluff" generation, not the crucial message. "Machine grading" would be something that the "machine" would have to be tuned for, which is Government Department level jurisdiction, and pretty well outside the skill set of teachers in general (I would think).
- rgblambda 2y ago
  When you say preparing lesson plans, is that like printing out worksheets or is it literally planning out what the lesson is going to be? I'm not a teacher so am obviously missing context, but I don't understand how this part isn't standardised for every teacher following the same curriculum. It would be like asking each individual teacher to write a new textbook every year.
  - Ekaros 2y ago
    Experienced teachers likely have it down. Or can just use whatever was done in previous years. But you have set standards changed every 10-20 years at least. And maybe new textbook that has things in bit different order. Or there is some topical thing. Lesson planning is really looking at book and items there thinking how much time going over it with current group takes and then considering what items or things are needed in addition to reach those goals for this lesson. If you had to make a 1/2 hour presentation/workshop, there is some planning involved even if you can just copy paste the slides and training material.
    - rgblambda 2y ago
      Okay, I get it now. Lesson plans are something that can only be done on the fly and are more about adapting to things outside the control of the teacher e.g. one lesson took longer due to a disruption in the classroom. I was wondering why the people who set the curriculum couldn't just make a year's worth of lesson plans and email them to each teacher. Thanks for the explainer (to everyone who replied).
      - gsinclair 2y ago
        Lesson plans are inherently individual to a teacher. So even if a year’s worth of lesson plans was created and shared, and even if I thought they were good, it would still take non-negligible time for me to absorb them and mentally plan how I was going to use them. That’s the tip of the iceberg in my attempt to explain the complexity of teaching.
  - majewsky 2y ago
sethammons 2y ago
As a math teacher in the states some years back, I worked 6:30 am to 4pm in the building and from and a couple hours most evenings and usually 3-6 hours both days of the weekend. 70+ hours a week. Any holiday was spent catching up on grading. I often recruited my wife to help grade it was so overwhelming. And summer meant trainings and summer school otherwise the summer was unpaid and as a teacher we desperately needed the money. All in, I averaged three separate weeks (one at Christmas, and one week on either side of summer) a year of stay-cation since we could barely afford food let alone travel. When I transitioned to software, I nearly cut my hours in half and doubled my pay, nearly 4x-ing my effective hourly wage and had my first real vacation; heck, my first time on a plane even.
notatoad 2y ago
a 9-3 school day for students means an 8-4 work day for teachers, minimum. that eats up the 40hr week right there, even for a teacher working the bare minimum.

stubish 2y ago

This isn't addressing unpaid hours, just the expectation than your boss or coworkers can communicate with you after hours. Unpaid hours is already illegal. How to enforce that in the education system without it collapsing is the open question.