4 ms·

Sounds like a great deal for the lucky 1/3 of developers who get assigned the day shift, but isn't it pretty rough for the majority? I'd much rather keep a norm

Sounds like a great deal for the lucky 1/3 of developers who get assigned the day shift, but isn't it pretty rough for the majority? I'd much rather keep a normal schedule and get woken up every once in a while than work 5pm-1am or 1am-9am.

selcuka 2y ago
> I'd much rather keep a normal schedule and get woken up every once in a while than work 5pm-1am or 1am-9am. It would be in the contract you'd sign when you accept the job. It's not like your current workplace will suddenly change the policy and force you to work at night. The world is already full of places with night shift jobs, and you are not currently working at one of those places.
- SpicyLemonZest 2y ago
  Why isn't it like that? If my company decided to follow a new rule that nobody can be oncall after hours, wouldn't they have to force at least 2 engineers from each oncall rotation into the new shifts? Even if I escape being one of those 2, shouldn't I expect to have 66% fewer day shift opportunities in the future?
  - Draiken 2y ago
    Once again the lack of worker rights come into play here. Companies should never be able to change an employee's working hours like that. I'm guessing in the US they can, because they have almost no worker's rights. Where I live this would be illegal. As for new opportunities, well, maybe? The theory would say these weird hour shifts would cost more and companies would have to think harder about their operations and decide if the extra cost really makes sense. Employees would also ask for more money to work under these hours. I believe it would simply remove the inherent expectation that every tech product is guaranteed to be online 24/7 without any extra cost to the companies, only to the employees lives. That's a great outcome in my view.
    - SpicyLemonZest 2y ago
      Sure, but this is one of the things people are talking about when they worry a regulation might make companies less competitive. Online 24/7 is table stakes for any company that aspires to have a global presence - nobody in Europe or the US would buy Atlassian products if they were only guaranteed to be available during business hours in Sydney. If Australia successfully shifted the culture on this, Australian software would struggle heavily to find success on the global markets.
      - Draiken 2y ago
        So what? If only companies could have slaves again to make them more competitive! I'm absolutely fine if companies "become less competitive" because they can't exploit their employees as much. Following this train thought would paint China's 996 policy as a great idea.
justinclift 2y ago
I'd actually be good with (and prefer) 5pm-1am. :)
yawaramin 2y ago
Luckily, employees in other parts of the world are in different time zones and their business hours can easily cover our off hours.
- Yodel0914 2y ago
  A lot of prod support can't be done remotely, for practical (need access to this physical environment) or security reasons.
  - chgs 2y ago
    In which case you need 24/7 shifts on site. If you can fix a problem remotely from your home then someone can do it in Sydney.
    - Yodel0914 2y ago
      24/7 on-site is costly and counterproductive when issues are rare but high impact. Someone in another country providing remote support doesn't work for a whole range of industries, particularly where security clearance is in play.
- dukeyukey 2y ago
  Even then, feels like.its easier and better for everyone if if instead of everyone needing multi-continental teams, you have one team, and if they get woken up and stupid o'clock to fix something, they get extra holiday or pay or something. I know I like it like that. And I get that not everyone does! But IME, the out-of-hours rota is usually voluntary, so you can choose.

selcuka 2y ago

> I'd much rather keep a normal schedule and get woken up every once in a while than work 5pm-1am or 1am-9am. It would be in the contract you'd sign when you accept the job. It's not like your current workplace will suddenly change the policy and force you to work at night. The world is already full of places with night shift jobs, and you are not currently working at one of those places.

SpicyLemonZest 2y ago
Why isn't it like that? If my company decided to follow a new rule that nobody can be oncall after hours, wouldn't they have to force at least 2 engineers from each oncall rotation into the new shifts? Even if I escape being one of those 2, shouldn't I expect to have 66% fewer day shift opportunities in the future?
- Draiken 2y ago
  Once again the lack of worker rights come into play here. Companies should never be able to change an employee's working hours like that. I'm guessing in the US they can, because they have almost no worker's rights. Where I live this would be illegal. As for new opportunities, well, maybe? The theory would say these weird hour shifts would cost more and companies would have to think harder about their operations and decide if the extra cost really makes sense. Employees would also ask for more money to work under these hours. I believe it would simply remove the inherent expectation that every tech product is guaranteed to be online 24/7 without any extra cost to the companies, only to the employees lives. That's a great outcome in my view.
  - SpicyLemonZest 2y ago
    Sure, but this is one of the things people are talking about when they worry a regulation might make companies less competitive. Online 24/7 is table stakes for any company that aspires to have a global presence - nobody in Europe or the US would buy Atlassian products if they were only guaranteed to be available during business hours in Sydney. If Australia successfully shifted the culture on this, Australian software would struggle heavily to find success on the global markets.
    - Draiken 2y ago
      So what? If only companies could have slaves again to make them more competitive! I'm absolutely fine if companies "become less competitive" because they can't exploit their employees as much. Following this train thought would paint China's 996 policy as a great idea.

justinclift 2y ago

I'd actually be good with (and prefer) 5pm-1am. :)

yawaramin 2y ago

Luckily, employees in other parts of the world are in different time zones and their business hours can easily cover our off hours.

Yodel0914 2y ago
A lot of prod support can't be done remotely, for practical (need access to this physical environment) or security reasons.
- chgs 2y ago
  In which case you need 24/7 shifts on site. If you can fix a problem remotely from your home then someone can do it in Sydney.
  - Yodel0914 2y ago
    24/7 on-site is costly and counterproductive when issues are rare but high impact. Someone in another country providing remote support doesn't work for a whole range of industries, particularly where security clearance is in play.
dukeyukey 2y ago
Even then, feels like.its easier and better for everyone if if instead of everyone needing multi-continental teams, you have one team, and if they get woken up and stupid o'clock to fix something, they get extra holiday or pay or something. I know I like it like that. And I get that not everyone does! But IME, the out-of-hours rota is usually voluntary, so you can choose.