6 ms·

We actually desperately need more startup activity in defense... the more consolidated the industry is the worse it is for taxpayers and citizens.

by jppope 2y ago

atlasunshrugged 2y ago
Totally agree, not to mention the need for democracies to have all the best tools at their disposal to deter (and if necessary defeat) totalitarian nations. I think the war in Ukraine has shown us that the days of dictatorships and invasions are not yet over and that weaponry is still needed to defend democracy.
- theFco 2y ago
  And don’t forget the occasional uncomfortable democracy that needs to be crushed (think Allende’s Chile)
  - Dibby053 2y ago
    Or (more relevantly to current geopolitics) Mosaddeq's Iran.
  - damien-rembert 2y ago
    As a non American, I'm not sure I get what you meant there, could you explain?
    - Moto7451 2y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change_in_Latin_America https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r... Not every case will fit the parent’s criteria but it’s important to understand how the US’ realpolitik has affected the world. We (the US) are not always the white knight.
      - cassianoleal 2y ago
        Also please add the context of Operation Condor [0] and the School of the Americas [1]. Also more recently the US participated actively in the coups in Ecuador, Bolívia, Brazil, Paraguay, ... [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_condor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_condor [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_of_the_americas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_of_the_americas
    - totetsu 2y ago
      I think they are commenting on atlassianshrugged's tacit assumption that american foreign policy and military power is always used in support of democracy against totalitarianism, with a sarcastic reference to a socialist democracy that the CIA helped overthrow and replace with a military Junta.
    - brohoolio 2y ago
      The U.S. makes mistakes in terms of doing the wrong thing. But because it’s a democracy, it is capable of recognizing those mistakes and attempting to make amends. For example the internment of people of Japanese descent during world war 2, it was terrible for the folks rounded up and put into camps. It took 40 years, but we acknowledged it was wrong. “In 1988, Congress passed, and President Reagan signed, Public Law 100-383 – the Civil Liberties Act of 1988 – that acknowledged the injustice of "internment," apologized for it, and provided a $20,000 cash payment to each person who was incarcerated.” If you are in a dictatorship, that acknowledgement of a past wrong is absolutely impossible. That’s why democracy is so important. George Takei makes this point much more eloquently that I ever could, and it’s why he believes so strongly in democracy.
      - mamonster 2y ago
        >If you are in a dictatorship, that acknowledgement of a past wrong is absolutely impossible Immediately after Stalin died Khruschev went on to destalinize the country, with the USSR still being a "dictatorship" by any reasonable definition.
        throwpoaster 2y ago
        Did he apologize for any of Stalin’s actions? That’s was parent is saying. There was no apology for Holomodor, for example.
        mamonster 2y ago
        >Did he apologize for any of Stalin’s actions? Yes, that was the whole point, he explicitly went around apologizing for Stalin and a lot of the stuff he did.. Rehabilitation of Volga germans, freeing political prisoners, partial? abolition of prison labor, shaming/removing Stalin's lieutenants, etc. >There was no apology for Holodomor There wasn't any apology for that, not that I'm aware of.
  - atlasunshrugged 2y ago
    I don't think anyone is arguing that many nations, including democracies like the U.S., are infallible and haven't done awful things in the past (and probably are doing some awful things now and probably will in the future), but I can tell you that I would much rather live in a world where the U.S. and countries with similar democratic values and at least some measure of accountability have the tools needed to stand up to dictatorships and authoritarianism. We can see how bad those societies are not just for the people that live under them (ex. however flawed the American political system, I appreciate being able to have a real choice when I vote instead of a phony election), but for how they try to force their will on the rest of the world (Russia in Ukraine being the most obvious example). I hate that we need weapons and force to protect our values, I really do, but I just don't see any real alternative to being able and willing to fight when necessary.
  - cwillu 2y ago
    Or Germany in the leadup to a certain major war.
- ignoramous 2y ago
  > weaponry is still needed to defend democracy When it isn't doing that, militant criminals should be held accountable; but are they? https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/projects/drone-war/ https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/projects/drone-war/
  - atlasunshrugged 2y ago
    They absolutely should and it's a real failure when criminals anywhere aren't head to account.
    - ignoramous 2y ago
      > failure when criminals anywhere aren't head to account Not just anywhere, but specifically here in America; but you wouldn't know from all the downvotes if folks are okay with holding American war criminals to account. The propaganda of "saving democracies" is too strong.
    - jakelazaroff 2y ago
      There is literally a U.S. law nicknamed the “Hague Invasion Act” that allows the president to authorize military action if an international body attempts to prosecute American citizens for war crimes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members'_Protection_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members'_Prot...
stackskipton 2y ago
There is a fair amount of startup activity in defense around software/tooling. There isn't a ton in hardware for same reason you don't see as many consumer startups doing hardware, it's very expensive and risky business.
giraffe_lady 2y ago
The people we drop bombs on are citizens of somewhere too.
- tourmalinetaco 2y ago
  But listen, we have to defend democracy! (Despite being a federal republic.) We have to fund international interests! (Despite having various national problems.)
  - FredPret 2y ago
    If everyone in America thought that, most of us humans would be dead and the remnants of our species would speak German, Japanese, or Russian only
    - tourmalinetaco 2y ago
      I strongly urge you to attend a history class, because only part of that is comparable to funding international wars for no gain or defensive reason. If the America of 1943 had the choice between its people or Ukraine, it would choose its people. Because that’s literally what we did while England and Poland was being bombed by the Nazis. It wasn’t until the Japanese made us get involved that we did anything. The closer example to now is indeed the cold war, but a lot of the “war on communism” was not only incredibly disruptive to smaller countries, and its efficacy over the long term was questionable, especially considering the USSR died out naturally.
      - Ancapistani 2y ago
        > It wasn’t until the Japanese made us get involved that we did anything. Lend-Lease began in 1941 - so we were exporting war materiel and technology years before we got directly involved in WW2.
      - throwpoaster 2y ago
        > especially considering the USSR died out naturally. What does this mean? You seem to say the war on communism did nothing because we won it anyway? How can you tell?

We actually desperately need more startup activity in defense... the more consolidated the industry is the worse it is for taxpayers and citizens.

by jppope 2y ago

We actually desperately need more startup activity in defense... the more consolidated the industry is the worse it is for taxpayers and citizens.

atlasunshrugged 2y ago

Totally agree, not to mention the need for democracies to have all the best tools at their disposal to deter (and if necessary defeat) totalitarian nations. I think the war in Ukraine has shown us that the days of dictatorships and invasions are not yet over and that weaponry is still needed to defend democracy.

theFco 2y ago
And don’t forget the occasional uncomfortable democracy that needs to be crushed (think Allende’s Chile)
- Dibby053 2y ago
  Or (more relevantly to current geopolitics) Mosaddeq's Iran.
- damien-rembert 2y ago
  As a non American, I'm not sure I get what you meant there, could you explain?
  - Moto7451 2y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change_in_Latin_America https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r... Not every case will fit the parent’s criteria but it’s important to understand how the US’ realpolitik has affected the world. We (the US) are not always the white knight.
    - cassianoleal 2y ago
      Also please add the context of Operation Condor [0] and the School of the Americas [1]. Also more recently the US participated actively in the coups in Ecuador, Bolívia, Brazil, Paraguay, ... [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_condor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_condor [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_of_the_americas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_of_the_americas
  - totetsu 2y ago
    I think they are commenting on atlassianshrugged's tacit assumption that american foreign policy and military power is always used in support of democracy against totalitarianism, with a sarcastic reference to a socialist democracy that the CIA helped overthrow and replace with a military Junta.
  - brohoolio 2y ago
    The U.S. makes mistakes in terms of doing the wrong thing. But because it’s a democracy, it is capable of recognizing those mistakes and attempting to make amends. For example the internment of people of Japanese descent during world war 2, it was terrible for the folks rounded up and put into camps. It took 40 years, but we acknowledged it was wrong. “In 1988, Congress passed, and President Reagan signed, Public Law 100-383 – the Civil Liberties Act of 1988 – that acknowledged the injustice of "internment," apologized for it, and provided a $20,000 cash payment to each person who was incarcerated.” If you are in a dictatorship, that acknowledgement of a past wrong is absolutely impossible. That’s why democracy is so important. George Takei makes this point much more eloquently that I ever could, and it’s why he believes so strongly in democracy.
    - mamonster 2y ago
      >If you are in a dictatorship, that acknowledgement of a past wrong is absolutely impossible Immediately after Stalin died Khruschev went on to destalinize the country, with the USSR still being a "dictatorship" by any reasonable definition.
      - throwpoaster 2y ago
        Did he apologize for any of Stalin’s actions? That’s was parent is saying. There was no apology for Holomodor, for example.
        mamonster 2y ago
        >Did he apologize for any of Stalin’s actions? Yes, that was the whole point, he explicitly went around apologizing for Stalin and a lot of the stuff he did.. Rehabilitation of Volga germans, freeing political prisoners, partial? abolition of prison labor, shaming/removing Stalin's lieutenants, etc. >There was no apology for Holodomor There wasn't any apology for that, not that I'm aware of.
- atlasunshrugged 2y ago
  I don't think anyone is arguing that many nations, including democracies like the U.S., are infallible and haven't done awful things in the past (and probably are doing some awful things now and probably will in the future), but I can tell you that I would much rather live in a world where the U.S. and countries with similar democratic values and at least some measure of accountability have the tools needed to stand up to dictatorships and authoritarianism. We can see how bad those societies are not just for the people that live under them (ex. however flawed the American political system, I appreciate being able to have a real choice when I vote instead of a phony election), but for how they try to force their will on the rest of the world (Russia in Ukraine being the most obvious example). I hate that we need weapons and force to protect our values, I really do, but I just don't see any real alternative to being able and willing to fight when necessary.
- cwillu 2y ago
  Or Germany in the leadup to a certain major war.
ignoramous 2y ago
> weaponry is still needed to defend democracy When it isn't doing that, militant criminals should be held accountable; but are they? https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/projects/drone-war/ https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/projects/drone-war/
- atlasunshrugged 2y ago
  They absolutely should and it's a real failure when criminals anywhere aren't head to account.
  - ignoramous 2y ago
    > failure when criminals anywhere aren't head to account Not just anywhere, but specifically here in America; but you wouldn't know from all the downvotes if folks are okay with holding American war criminals to account. The propaganda of "saving democracies" is too strong.
  - jakelazaroff 2y ago
    There is literally a U.S. law nicknamed the “Hague Invasion Act” that allows the president to authorize military action if an international body attempts to prosecute American citizens for war crimes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members'_Protection_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members'_Prot...

stackskipton 2y ago

There is a fair amount of startup activity in defense around software/tooling. There isn't a ton in hardware for same reason you don't see as many consumer startups doing hardware, it's very expensive and risky business.

giraffe_lady 2y ago

The people we drop bombs on are citizens of somewhere too.

tourmalinetaco 2y ago
But listen, we have to defend democracy! (Despite being a federal republic.) We have to fund international interests! (Despite having various national problems.)
- FredPret 2y ago
  If everyone in America thought that, most of us humans would be dead and the remnants of our species would speak German, Japanese, or Russian only
  - tourmalinetaco 2y ago
    I strongly urge you to attend a history class, because only part of that is comparable to funding international wars for no gain or defensive reason. If the America of 1943 had the choice between its people or Ukraine, it would choose its people. Because that’s literally what we did while England and Poland was being bombed by the Nazis. It wasn’t until the Japanese made us get involved that we did anything. The closer example to now is indeed the cold war, but a lot of the “war on communism” was not only incredibly disruptive to smaller countries, and its efficacy over the long term was questionable, especially considering the USSR died out naturally.
    - Ancapistani 2y ago
      > It wasn’t until the Japanese made us get involved that we did anything. Lend-Lease began in 1941 - so we were exporting war materiel and technology years before we got directly involved in WW2.
    - throwpoaster 2y ago
      > especially considering the USSR died out naturally. What does this mean? You seem to say the war on communism did nothing because we won it anyway? How can you tell?