6 ms·

The EU has proven itself time and time again to be so openly anti-innovation that it’s difficult to even take legislation like the Digital Services Act seriousl

The EU has proven itself time and time again to be so openly anti-innovation that it’s difficult to even take legislation like the Digital Services Act seriously. None of my products operate in the EU and for good reason. I have no interest in playing the legal games required to support them. I wish I more fully understood the cultural differences that make this anti-innovation stance so prevalent in the EU.

throwaway22032 2y ago
Old world aristrocratic mindset. It's not just the European Union, the UK is the same. There is a heavy bias towards what works for the incumbents. One of the ways in which this plays out in Britain is that almost everyone is culturally conditioned to consider themselves as being a certain "class" of person e.g. they'll never start a business, they'll never earn above a certain amount, they'll work 50 years for a company (not the same necessarily, just "a company"), if they're lucky they'll get a mortgage on a 2 bedroom house. They look down on others who want more than that, which works very well for those who have it and want to maintain that moat. Contrast that with the US in which success is celebrated and even the poorest dream of one day "making it".
- IdiocyInAction 2y ago
  The UK leads in Europe for start up founding… Almost nobody in the UK works for the same company for 50 years and this used to be a thing in the US too. Canada has similar laws/issues. Social mobility is also higher in the UK than the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index Now I don’t trust these indices tbh, but I trust them more than a nice sounding anecdote. There is a class divide in the UK but it's more complex/nuanced than what is described in this comment.
  - ilrwbwrkhv 2y ago
    That's why Canada also is one of the worst countries in G8 and maybe the most mediocre countries when it comes to actual startup investment and building something new for the world and growing the share of the pie. On top of that, they have a horrible system where nobody can get a doctor. Everybody has to pay double to get a block of butter and housing is so high that you get a whole neighborhood in the US for that price. That is why the countries like uk canada and also Europe are incredibly poor. Class system and anti-innovation.
    - IdiocyInAction 2y ago
      If you do a global comparison the US is incredibly richer rather than these countries being incredibly poor.
    - NetOpWibby 2y ago
      American here. I was under the impression that Canadian healthcare was incredible. At least, that's what I've been told for years by randos online.
      - ilrwbwrkhv 2y ago
        Trust me I spent a huge portion of my life there. The reason why I speak so much against Canada these days is because the country is delusional. Nobody wants to take any risks and yet they think things will always fall into place for them.
      - monsieurgaufre 2y ago
        If you have a serious health problem, you will generally be seen "immediatly" and free of charge. For the rest, mindset plays a role in the perceived doom in Canada. Conservative talking points only ever focus on the gloom. Source: am canadian.
    - tim333 2y ago
      >why the countries like uk canada and also Europe are incredibly poor They are not that poor if you adjust for cost of living and hours worked. If you look at the Wikipedia thing "GDP per working hour (2019 US$ PPP)" some results are: Denmark 76 USA 74 Canada 57 Spain 56 UK 54 So the pay isn't that much worse per hour. People probably work a little less over here, maybe because we don't have the whole if you don't work you won't get health cover and will be doomed thing. Also life expectancy is 76 years in the US vs 84 years in Spain. There's more to life than working all hours then croaking.
  - throwaway22032 2y ago
    A company, not the same company. I don't think that social mobility can be measured statistically, because it depends on people actually trying. I actually think that the UK does have fairly high social mobility _but_ the vast majority of people get stuck in local maxima, and the laws are influenced by that (e.g. stuff like obsession with the mediocre outcome). Having said that, the index you've pasted is complete bollocks. I don't know what they are measuring but it has nothing to do with what I would consider social mobility (e.g. ability to move into a different social class or perhaps earn a significantly different amount to your parents). The factors they use seem super focused on socialist policies which I don't think have anything to do with mobility.
    - jltsiren 2y ago
      Interesting that you consider it socialist, because the World Economic Forum has often been considered as the embodiment of neoliberalism. Around 2000, when there were huge anti-globalization protests by left / green / anarchist activists around the world, WEF was one of the primary targets.
      - throwaway22032 2y ago
        My use of the term "socialist" was lazy. I think that the main issue is that it tries to come up with a metric that works across every country which is basically pointless because a lot of them are failed states where income information isn't reliable or meaningful. So they come up with stuff like "how high is teenage pregnancy" and "what is the male female work balance" which they define as being proxies for social mobility I assume because if you have five kids at age 20 and you're forced to stay at home then you have none. The problem is that it just introduces a billion ways to influence the actual rankings, they are value judgements. If you look at well functioning countries only, then you can pretty much look at how many people in the bottom decile of parental household income end up in the top decile of household income. You still have the issue though that this only tells you how the distribution actually ends up, not how it _could_ look in a specific country if everyone actually tried their hardest to climb the social/financial ladder.
    - 2y ago
- wkat4242 2y ago
  The US dream of "making it" is all about money. What we in Spain consider "making it" is to enjoy life, having time to relax, pursuing hobbies, spending time with family. And not having to worry about healthcare bills and pensions. We don't need a lot of money for that. I don't always want more. I just want enough. In the US the vast majority never "makes it" and they are far worse off than we are here. I think Europe is great the way it is. I would not move to the US even if I was offered a job there. In fact I don't even want to visit and never have though I've lived in many countries around the world.
  - jaharios 2y ago
    Both systems think they are right, both are coping. One is slave to hustling and greed with no time/chance to enjoy basic things in life. The other will always be under the boots of the employees/managers and complain while enjoying basic things. Both are slaves to their masters, just enjoying a comfort enough to keep going at it.
    - wkat4242 2y ago
      > The other will always be under the boots of the employees/managers and complain while enjoying basic things. No, not really. Employees have actual rights here in Europe :) Most of my (ex-)managers are also my friends. There is no boot. We get lots of holidays, we get a good lump sum when we are laid off because there is no "at will" employment and grievances can be discussed fairly. There's always reason to complain of course but we're not bad off.
  - peripitea 2y ago
    >In the US the vast majority never "makes it" and they are far worse off than we are here. Mississippi, the poorest state in America, has 33% higher GDP per capita than Spain does.
    - justinclift 2y ago
      You're proving the point of the commenter you're replying to. ;) They're pointing out that "richness" comes from measuring all parts of a person's life. But you immediately revert to talking about only money. It's super ironic.
- rsynnott 2y ago
  The US has lower social mobility than most developed countries; in particular if you’re in the bottom quintile in the US, your chances of making it out are particularly low relative to other countries.
rasz 2y ago
innovation like selling drugs and ordering hitmen? Which US social media platforms can be used to quickly, effortlessly and openly sell drugs? I know of one that tried, owner is in US prison right now.
- mc32 2y ago
  Probably Mastodon.
  - jdiff 2y ago
    Nope, any US-based server would find itself either turned into a honeypot or taken down in a flash.
  - immibis 2y ago
    Mastodon is a German (European) platform.
pokot0 2y ago
It’s the difference between legislation for the benefit of people and legislation for the benefit of businesses. Both can be good or bad, it’s just a different mindset.
stainablesteel 2y ago
the EU may as well go back to the stone age, it seems to be what they want
- graftak 2y ago
  Funny that you say that because to a European the US worker and consumer rights seem very archaic. There just might be more to life than tech innovation and startups.
- thefz 2y ago
  For many indices the US is a third world country.
  - adamtaylor_13 2y ago
    Sounds like many indices aren’t useful metrics.
delbronski 2y ago
I wouldn’t say anti-innovation. The EU just places more value on protecting workers/consumers than businesses. I can understand that to a lot of Americans a government that tries to protect its people from businesses may not make sense. But most of us in this side of the world cheer on when big companies like Apple have to bend to the EU. Yes, even if it makes starting my own business more difficult. As a European entrepreneur I care a lot more about consumers/workers being treated fairly than I do about innovation. I know the EU does not always get this right. But man, the US treats is workers and consumers like crap. I wish I more fully understood the cultural differences that makes this business-first stance so prevalent in the United States.
- 2-3-7-43-1807 2y ago
  i also cheer when apple has to bend over but when i'm honest it's more for primitive reasons and a general hate for their product line which i am somewhat forced to use. but apart from that EU regulation is mostly a negative in the sense of prohibiting and restricting business activities - which some might consider innovation. but EU isn't particularly strong with regard to enabling innovation and business activity.
- southernplaces7 2y ago
  > The EU just places more value on protecting workers/consumers than businesses This is flagrantly bullshit, unless you're claiming that there's some sort of intellectual and moral difference in European human beings because... reasons... The EU is as corporatist and protectionist of big business as it's possible to be, it just hides it (poorly) behind a number of veils while throwing moral-sounding legalisms at certain companies and entrepreneurial culture in general. I say this as someone who fully detests some of the rapacious grubbiness of many American tech companies and the silicon valley culture and believes both should be watched carefully. Nonetheless, this placement of the EU on an absurd pédestal because it's "European" needs to burn and die. >As a European entrepreneur I care a lot more about consumers/workers being treated fairly These sorts of claims are tediously common here on HN from too many people obviously from Europe. For one thing, as a European the only thing you can establish under that rubric is that you're from that part of the Eurasian continent. Nothing more, certainly not morally or emotionally. Being a European menas being part of dozens of cultures that all have their own details, and of which many are no less greedy, self-serving, dishonest and in further extremes racist as hell, than they are in many other parts of the world. Does your smugly self-indulgent statement somehow imply that American entrepreneurs only care about squeezing every last dollar while crapping as much as possible on their employees and customers? If so, I invite your to open your eyes wider.
niemandhier 2y ago
Nothing physical I own was made in the US, at least not visibly. I checked last year due to a bet, everything is from Asia or the EU. For HN innovation often means digital stuff, but the world remains a physical space. The EU is a decent place to start non digital high tech companies. Germany was at the cusp of becoming a biotech powerhouse, the war and energy price increases killed that. But these are external factors, so I think it counts as a counter example.
- throwaway48540 2y ago
  How many of the things were designed by Americans? The actual place of manufacturing matters less than who owns and is capable of producing the design and manufacturing process. For example chips - I absolutely don't believe you don't have an American CPU. If you have Intel, it was made in USA, but even if not, it's not like the Chinese, Taiwanese or Koreans could just go and produce an AMD or Apple-comparable chip, just having a factory to produce a chip is very far from actually producing a competitive chip. Samsung is trying but Exynos, while a good chip by itself, is definitely not comparable to Qualcomm.
  - niemandhier 2y ago
    You misunderstood, I never intended to say the US was an irrelevant economy, that would be foolish. I just wanted to point out, that the HN audience tends to see things from a very US centric perspective and therefore likes to point out that their own approaches would not be feasible in the EU. However, while struggling at many points, the EU is far from becoming economically irrelevant as the top poster sees to believe. To address your arguments on intellectual property being as important as actual manufacturing, I tend to differ. 3 points: 1. This type of thinking is exactly the reason why china became a super power. 2. Intellectual property is only as good as the power to enforce it, if Russia had the factories to produce the tech they need for the war, nothing could stop them from just from doing it. 3. In economies build on intellectual property and outsourcing, wealth concentrates in the hand of the patent holders. Neither of which seems desirable to me. I do not begrudge the Chinese their economic success, but the events in the north Filipin Sea are concerning.
thefz 2y ago
I instead am glad that this far west is finally regulated. If you do not wish to respect customer privacy laws, I am ok with you not wanting to sell your product in the EU.
hn1986 2y ago
This is no different than a tor server getting raid because it's hosting CSAM. Telegram CEO was arrested bc he did nothing to control the amount of CSAM in the public channels he was hosting. People on HN are sadly very misinformed on this issue. https://www.ft.com/content/196fbc63-b311-4e9f-bd6a-ffcc7e2a68c0 https://www.ft.com/content/196fbc63-b311-4e9f-bd6a-ffcc7e2a6...
- asqueella 2y ago
  Please educate us. The article you linked only has these two bits, as far as I can see: > Ofmin, a French police agency set up last year focused on preventing violence against minors, said on Monday that Durov is alleged to have failed to adequately moderate criminal activity. > “At the heart of this issue is the lack of moderation and co-operation by the platform (which has nearly 1 billion users), particularly in the fight against child sex crimes,” Jean-Michel Bernigaud, the secretary-general of Ofmin, wrote on LinkedIn on Monday. And: > Durov has taken a hands-off approach to moderation and cast the app as unassailable by governments. However, some researchers have warned that it has become a hub for illicit activity and extremism as a result.

throwaway22032 2y ago

Old world aristrocratic mindset. It's not just the European Union, the UK is the same. There is a heavy bias towards what works for the incumbents. One of the ways in which this plays out in Britain is that almost everyone is culturally conditioned to consider themselves as being a certain "class" of person e.g. they'll never start a business, they'll never earn above a certain amount, they'll work 50 years for a company (not the same necessarily, just "a company"), if they're lucky they'll get a mortgage on a 2 bedroom house. They look down on others who want more than that, which works very well for those who have it and want to maintain that moat. Contrast that with the US in which success is celebrated and even the poorest dream of one day "making it".

IdiocyInAction 2y ago
The UK leads in Europe for start up founding… Almost nobody in the UK works for the same company for 50 years and this used to be a thing in the US too. Canada has similar laws/issues. Social mobility is also higher in the UK than the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index Now I don’t trust these indices tbh, but I trust them more than a nice sounding anecdote. There is a class divide in the UK but it's more complex/nuanced than what is described in this comment.
- ilrwbwrkhv 2y ago
  That's why Canada also is one of the worst countries in G8 and maybe the most mediocre countries when it comes to actual startup investment and building something new for the world and growing the share of the pie. On top of that, they have a horrible system where nobody can get a doctor. Everybody has to pay double to get a block of butter and housing is so high that you get a whole neighborhood in the US for that price. That is why the countries like uk canada and also Europe are incredibly poor. Class system and anti-innovation.
  - IdiocyInAction 2y ago
    If you do a global comparison the US is incredibly richer rather than these countries being incredibly poor.
  - NetOpWibby 2y ago
    American here. I was under the impression that Canadian healthcare was incredible. At least, that's what I've been told for years by randos online.
    - ilrwbwrkhv 2y ago
      Trust me I spent a huge portion of my life there. The reason why I speak so much against Canada these days is because the country is delusional. Nobody wants to take any risks and yet they think things will always fall into place for them.
    - monsieurgaufre 2y ago
      If you have a serious health problem, you will generally be seen "immediatly" and free of charge. For the rest, mindset plays a role in the perceived doom in Canada. Conservative talking points only ever focus on the gloom. Source: am canadian.
  - tim333 2y ago
    >why the countries like uk canada and also Europe are incredibly poor They are not that poor if you adjust for cost of living and hours worked. If you look at the Wikipedia thing "GDP per working hour (2019 US$ PPP)" some results are: Denmark 76 USA 74 Canada 57 Spain 56 UK 54 So the pay isn't that much worse per hour. People probably work a little less over here, maybe because we don't have the whole if you don't work you won't get health cover and will be doomed thing. Also life expectancy is 76 years in the US vs 84 years in Spain. There's more to life than working all hours then croaking.
- throwaway22032 2y ago
  A company, not the same company. I don't think that social mobility can be measured statistically, because it depends on people actually trying. I actually think that the UK does have fairly high social mobility _but_ the vast majority of people get stuck in local maxima, and the laws are influenced by that (e.g. stuff like obsession with the mediocre outcome). Having said that, the index you've pasted is complete bollocks. I don't know what they are measuring but it has nothing to do with what I would consider social mobility (e.g. ability to move into a different social class or perhaps earn a significantly different amount to your parents). The factors they use seem super focused on socialist policies which I don't think have anything to do with mobility.
  - jltsiren 2y ago
    Interesting that you consider it socialist, because the World Economic Forum has often been considered as the embodiment of neoliberalism. Around 2000, when there were huge anti-globalization protests by left / green / anarchist activists around the world, WEF was one of the primary targets.
    - throwaway22032 2y ago
      My use of the term "socialist" was lazy. I think that the main issue is that it tries to come up with a metric that works across every country which is basically pointless because a lot of them are failed states where income information isn't reliable or meaningful. So they come up with stuff like "how high is teenage pregnancy" and "what is the male female work balance" which they define as being proxies for social mobility I assume because if you have five kids at age 20 and you're forced to stay at home then you have none. The problem is that it just introduces a billion ways to influence the actual rankings, they are value judgements. If you look at well functioning countries only, then you can pretty much look at how many people in the bottom decile of parental household income end up in the top decile of household income. You still have the issue though that this only tells you how the distribution actually ends up, not how it _could_ look in a specific country if everyone actually tried their hardest to climb the social/financial ladder.
  - 2y ago
wkat4242 2y ago
The US dream of "making it" is all about money. What we in Spain consider "making it" is to enjoy life, having time to relax, pursuing hobbies, spending time with family. And not having to worry about healthcare bills and pensions. We don't need a lot of money for that. I don't always want more. I just want enough. In the US the vast majority never "makes it" and they are far worse off than we are here. I think Europe is great the way it is. I would not move to the US even if I was offered a job there. In fact I don't even want to visit and never have though I've lived in many countries around the world.
- jaharios 2y ago
  Both systems think they are right, both are coping. One is slave to hustling and greed with no time/chance to enjoy basic things in life. The other will always be under the boots of the employees/managers and complain while enjoying basic things. Both are slaves to their masters, just enjoying a comfort enough to keep going at it.
  - wkat4242 2y ago
    > The other will always be under the boots of the employees/managers and complain while enjoying basic things. No, not really. Employees have actual rights here in Europe :) Most of my (ex-)managers are also my friends. There is no boot. We get lots of holidays, we get a good lump sum when we are laid off because there is no "at will" employment and grievances can be discussed fairly. There's always reason to complain of course but we're not bad off.
- peripitea 2y ago
  >In the US the vast majority never "makes it" and they are far worse off than we are here. Mississippi, the poorest state in America, has 33% higher GDP per capita than Spain does.
  - justinclift 2y ago
    You're proving the point of the commenter you're replying to. ;) They're pointing out that "richness" comes from measuring all parts of a person's life. But you immediately revert to talking about only money. It's super ironic.
rsynnott 2y ago
The US has lower social mobility than most developed countries; in particular if you’re in the bottom quintile in the US, your chances of making it out are particularly low relative to other countries.

rasz 2y ago

innovation like selling drugs and ordering hitmen? Which US social media platforms can be used to quickly, effortlessly and openly sell drugs? I know of one that tried, owner is in US prison right now.

mc32 2y ago
Probably Mastodon.
- jdiff 2y ago
  Nope, any US-based server would find itself either turned into a honeypot or taken down in a flash.
- immibis 2y ago
  Mastodon is a German (European) platform.

pokot0 2y ago

It’s the difference between legislation for the benefit of people and legislation for the benefit of businesses. Both can be good or bad, it’s just a different mindset.

stainablesteel 2y ago

the EU may as well go back to the stone age, it seems to be what they want

graftak 2y ago
Funny that you say that because to a European the US worker and consumer rights seem very archaic. There just might be more to life than tech innovation and startups.
thefz 2y ago
For many indices the US is a third world country.
- adamtaylor_13 2y ago
  Sounds like many indices aren’t useful metrics.

delbronski 2y ago

I wouldn’t say anti-innovation. The EU just places more value on protecting workers/consumers than businesses. I can understand that to a lot of Americans a government that tries to protect its people from businesses may not make sense. But most of us in this side of the world cheer on when big companies like Apple have to bend to the EU. Yes, even if it makes starting my own business more difficult. As a European entrepreneur I care a lot more about consumers/workers being treated fairly than I do about innovation. I know the EU does not always get this right. But man, the US treats is workers and consumers like crap. I wish I more fully understood the cultural differences that makes this business-first stance so prevalent in the United States.

2-3-7-43-1807 2y ago
i also cheer when apple has to bend over but when i'm honest it's more for primitive reasons and a general hate for their product line which i am somewhat forced to use. but apart from that EU regulation is mostly a negative in the sense of prohibiting and restricting business activities - which some might consider innovation. but EU isn't particularly strong with regard to enabling innovation and business activity.
southernplaces7 2y ago
> The EU just places more value on protecting workers/consumers than businesses This is flagrantly bullshit, unless you're claiming that there's some sort of intellectual and moral difference in European human beings because... reasons... The EU is as corporatist and protectionist of big business as it's possible to be, it just hides it (poorly) behind a number of veils while throwing moral-sounding legalisms at certain companies and entrepreneurial culture in general. I say this as someone who fully detests some of the rapacious grubbiness of many American tech companies and the silicon valley culture and believes both should be watched carefully. Nonetheless, this placement of the EU on an absurd pédestal because it's "European" needs to burn and die. >As a European entrepreneur I care a lot more about consumers/workers being treated fairly These sorts of claims are tediously common here on HN from too many people obviously from Europe. For one thing, as a European the only thing you can establish under that rubric is that you're from that part of the Eurasian continent. Nothing more, certainly not morally or emotionally. Being a European menas being part of dozens of cultures that all have their own details, and of which many are no less greedy, self-serving, dishonest and in further extremes racist as hell, than they are in many other parts of the world. Does your smugly self-indulgent statement somehow imply that American entrepreneurs only care about squeezing every last dollar while crapping as much as possible on their employees and customers? If so, I invite your to open your eyes wider.

niemandhier 2y ago

Nothing physical I own was made in the US, at least not visibly. I checked last year due to a bet, everything is from Asia or the EU. For HN innovation often means digital stuff, but the world remains a physical space. The EU is a decent place to start non digital high tech companies. Germany was at the cusp of becoming a biotech powerhouse, the war and energy price increases killed that. But these are external factors, so I think it counts as a counter example.

throwaway48540 2y ago
How many of the things were designed by Americans? The actual place of manufacturing matters less than who owns and is capable of producing the design and manufacturing process. For example chips - I absolutely don't believe you don't have an American CPU. If you have Intel, it was made in USA, but even if not, it's not like the Chinese, Taiwanese or Koreans could just go and produce an AMD or Apple-comparable chip, just having a factory to produce a chip is very far from actually producing a competitive chip. Samsung is trying but Exynos, while a good chip by itself, is definitely not comparable to Qualcomm.
- niemandhier 2y ago
  You misunderstood, I never intended to say the US was an irrelevant economy, that would be foolish. I just wanted to point out, that the HN audience tends to see things from a very US centric perspective and therefore likes to point out that their own approaches would not be feasible in the EU. However, while struggling at many points, the EU is far from becoming economically irrelevant as the top poster sees to believe. To address your arguments on intellectual property being as important as actual manufacturing, I tend to differ. 3 points: 1. This type of thinking is exactly the reason why china became a super power. 2. Intellectual property is only as good as the power to enforce it, if Russia had the factories to produce the tech they need for the war, nothing could stop them from just from doing it. 3. In economies build on intellectual property and outsourcing, wealth concentrates in the hand of the patent holders. Neither of which seems desirable to me. I do not begrudge the Chinese their economic success, but the events in the north Filipin Sea are concerning.

thefz 2y ago

I instead am glad that this far west is finally regulated. If you do not wish to respect customer privacy laws, I am ok with you not wanting to sell your product in the EU.

hn1986 2y ago

This is no different than a tor server getting raid because it's hosting CSAM. Telegram CEO was arrested bc he did nothing to control the amount of CSAM in the public channels he was hosting. People on HN are sadly very misinformed on this issue. https://www.ft.com/content/196fbc63-b311-4e9f-bd6a-ffcc7e2a68c0 https://www.ft.com/content/196fbc63-b311-4e9f-bd6a-ffcc7e2a6...

asqueella 2y ago
Please educate us. The article you linked only has these two bits, as far as I can see: > Ofmin, a French police agency set up last year focused on preventing violence against minors, said on Monday that Durov is alleged to have failed to adequately moderate criminal activity. > “At the heart of this issue is the lack of moderation and co-operation by the platform (which has nearly 1 billion users), particularly in the fight against child sex crimes,” Jean-Michel Bernigaud, the secretary-general of Ofmin, wrote on LinkedIn on Monday. And: > Durov has taken a hands-off approach to moderation and cast the app as unassailable by governments. However, some researchers have warned that it has become a hub for illicit activity and extremism as a result.