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>I can easily guess that assholes in secret service would probably like very much to use that to blackmail him to add backdoors to telegram Do you unironically

by Glacia 2y ago

>I can easily guess that assholes in secret service would probably like very much to use that to blackmail him to add backdoors to telegram Do you unironically believe it's not already backdoored for Russian government?

greatgib 2y ago
Since forever I stay suspicious but so far Telegram as an impeccable track record. Never there was a single instance of case where there would be even a suspicion of proof that insider knowledge of conversations was accessed/used. Also, it is clear that Durov is a dissident and personally experienced and run away of the dictatorial state. So I think that it is probably one of the tech personality that I trust the most in the world.
- ceinewydd 2y ago
  https://x.com/filosottile/status/987376021589692416?s=21 https://x.com/filosottile/status/987376021589692416?s=21 I'm not sure that counts as an impeccable track record.
- lxgr 2y ago
  “Track record” is an incredibly poor indicator for the lack of a government backdoor, thinking back to Snowden, for example.
- hamilyon2 2y ago
  The latest evidence of wide cooperation of telegram and Russian officials: https://roskomsvoboda.org/ru/post/shutdown-v-baymake/ https://roskomsvoboda.org/ru/post/shutdown-v-baymake/
  - codedokode 2y ago
    The article doesn't contain the evidence though; it claims that someone changed access to private for a Telegram group that covered the protests. However, as the article says, it could be done not only by Telegram, but by one of the administrators.
    - Glacia 2y ago
      Except there were multiple different groups that magically happen to go private at the same time. I'm not even going to mention how many people were arrested over telegram messages in russia.
- Glacia 2y ago
  Obviously FSB is not going to make a press release and be like "We have the keys LOL" so there would never be definitive proof. Fun fact: Telegram at some point was blocked in Russia for not giving FSB access to data. Later telegram was unblocked and is used extensively in Russia. It's not hard to figure out why it was unblocked.
  - ivanmontillam 2y ago
    > It's not hard to figure out why it was unblocked. If you're implying it's backdoored, that's a wild mental gymnastics you made there. No hate, but your comment is speculative in nature.
  - k1ndl1 2y ago
    It was unblocked because of the backlash from people, incl. Russian politicians who are heavy Telegram users. FSB has nothing to do with it.
    - Glacia 2y ago
      >It was unblocked because of the backlash from people, incl. Russian politicians who are heavy Telegram users. FSB has nothing to do with it. Saying Russian government would give a shit about people opinions, funny joke.
  - roveo 2y ago
    Telegram wasn't fully blocked in Russia even for a single day. They tried to block it and failed miserably. The team actively circumvented the blocking by deploying to new IPs faster than they were blocked, and in addition to that every IT guy in Russia had a tgproxy instance running for family and friends. After a while they just stopped trying and decided that it's less reputational damage to just let it be.
    - Glacia 2y ago
      >After a while they just stopped trying and decided that it's less reputational damage to just let it be. That's not true. It's legally unblocked. the reason why it was unblocked was never published. "It was unblocked because they gave up" is just your interpretation of the events. Pretty naive one, in my opinion.
- evilfred 2y ago
  [flagged]
- codedokode 2y ago
  By the way, Dropbox had a person from the govt (Condoleezza Rice) on the Board of Directors, and people still entrusted their data to it.
chucke1992 2y ago
> Do you unironically believe it's not already backdoored for Russian government? Yes. You should read the history of Durov and why Telegram was created in the first place.
- z_open 2y ago
  Why don't you post it yourself. And why should I care about what he says when telegram has some of the worst default encryption settings among commonly used messaging apps in the west?
  - chucke1992 2y ago
    Except Telegram is considered one of the most secured apps around. Obviously it cannot stop people from being stupid when they expose themselves. The very reason why France is not happy is that because they cannot get access to private chats and stuff. EU was (and is) pushing for the end of E2E encryption after all (it failed this time, but they will try again). Durov created Telegram because the russian government was trying to take over his original social network - VK (basically imagine USA gov taking over Facebook). Thus he sold his shared and left the country. I do find it hilarious to see apologists of government over-reach like you.
    - z_open 2y ago
      What about group chat encryption? You can not possible say telegram is more secure than signal or WhatsApp. What did I say that made me an apologist for government overreach? I recommend users use Signal? Your accusation is unfounded when I was complaining about a lack of encryption.
      - chucke1992 2y ago
        With Whatsapp it is pretty obvious at this point that it is in cahoot with governments in regards of backdoors and stuff. With Signal? Who knows? Maybe too. Governments don't go after services that they can access freely.
tssge 2y ago
[deleted]
- lxgr 2y ago
  Telegram has, by design, message content accessible to whoever runs the servers. WhatsApp has gone to great lengths to not have that. Obviously there’s client security, potential backdoors, unencrypted backups, and many other things to worry about. But I don’t see a scenario where it fares worse than Telegram, and many where it’s significantly better.
  - arresin 2y ago
    Whatsapp has to have some kind of escape hatch if not back door simply because of the amount of heat it doesn’t get (think of all the regimes who are ok with it).
    - lxgr 2y ago
      I believe that escape hatch to be cloud backups, which are heavily encouraged by the UI and not end-to-end encrypted by default. iMessage has made the same compromise. As long as enough people click that checkbox, law enforcement has access and Meta/Apple are out of the news without having lied about or hidden anything.
- evilfred 2y ago
  telegram is undoubtedly influenced by the Russian govt https://www.wired.com/story/the-kremlin-has-entered-the-chat/ https://www.wired.com/story/the-kremlin-has-entered-the-chat...
- jimbob45 2y ago
  My understanding is that WhatsApp has never made claims comparable to Telegram or Signal. I also can’t tell if you’re being sincere. I was under the impression that Telegram was considered significantly less secure than Signal and that the matter was mostly settled. I’ve been seeing the following talking points repeated for years now. https://www.reddit.com/r/signal/comments/xk1jdw/comment/ipbvbx0/ https://www.reddit.com/r/signal/comments/xk1jdw/comment/ipbv...
alephnerd 2y ago
> Do you unironically believe it's not already backdoored for Russian government? To people arguing against this, Russia's Sovereign Wealth Fund RDIF has an ownership stake in Telegram after co-raising with Abu Dhabi's Mudabala in 2021 [0] Either way, Telegram is at the whims of MbZ, and if the UAE ever needs something from Russia, they'll use Durov and Telegram as collateral. The UAE's done the same thing with Pakistan (Musharraf, Nawaz Sharif), India (Dawood Ibrahim), Israel-Palestine (Mohammad Dahlan), Serbia (Belgrade Waterfront Project and Mohammad Dahlan), Turkiye (Mohammad Dahlan), etc. If the Telegram founders were truly opposed to Russia, they would have immigrated to Israel, the UK, Germany, Netherlands, or the US like most business dissidents in Russia. If VK wasn't stolen by an oligarch, they would have remained in Russia to this day. [0] - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-03-23/russia-mubadala-invest-in-telegram-after-kremlin-ban-failed?embedded-checkout=true https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-03-23/russia-mu...
GaggiX 2y ago
>Do you unironically believe it's not already backdoored for Russian government? Yes as Telegram was banned in Russia for a long time (or at least they tried) before giving up.
- marcinzm 2y ago
  If they backdoored it between those events then it’d be logical to unban it.
  - GaggiX 2y ago
    There was no need, Russia did try by banning a lot of IP ranges but Telegram at the end was still running.
palata 2y ago
There is no need for a backdoor since the vast majority of messages on Telegram are not end-to-end encrypted. Just read from the server!
kgeist 2y ago
Durov was notorious in Russia for refusing to cooperate with FSB (successor to KGB), too. I remember when FSB asked him to give access to protester communications on VK (in 2011 during mass protests), he mockingly responded with a picture of a dog with its tongue out (showing your tongue means "I won't give it to ya" in Russian culture). That's why he left Russia, because he felt he'd get arrested soon. Quite ironic that he ended up getting arrested in the "free world", not Russia. Telegram was also banned in Russia for a few years.
- codedokode 2y ago
  And my intuition is that Telegram is going to become banned in Russia soon, as Youtube is being banned now and Telegram is the last popular application where you can find the content about war, protests or elections that govt doesn't like.
  - kgeist 2y ago
    Telegram has also large Russian pro-war communities, and it's extensively used by soldiers deployed in Ukraine for communication. If pro-war channels outnumber opposition channels (and they probably do), Telegram probably won't be banned as long the government has no alternative. The fact of Durov getting arrested could be also used for propaganda purposes (no free speech in the West).
  - foverzar 2y ago
    > And my intuition is that Telegram is going to become banned in Russia soon It had already happened with extreme humiliation of responsible agencies. > as Youtube is being banned now It's not banned, it's throttled because google kept abusing backbone networks once their CDNs had started to burn down and claiming that this is totally fine and fixable with direct BGP peerings with ISPs (yeah, right) It works just fine on mobile internet connection where traffic shaping is an inherent feature and it only works like shit on broadband where ISPs are only capable of sending TCP RST once the queue is over the limit. > Telegram is the last popular application where you can find the content about war, protests or elections that govt doesn't like Clearly you are not in touch with people in Russia and have never actually seen their social media. Or just being dramatic.
timcobb 2y ago
Yeah why would it be backdoored by the Russian government? Because Durov is Russian?
stiltzkin 2y ago
[flagged]

by Glacia 2y ago

greatgib 2y ago

Since forever I stay suspicious but so far Telegram as an impeccable track record. Never there was a single instance of case where there would be even a suspicion of proof that insider knowledge of conversations was accessed/used. Also, it is clear that Durov is a dissident and personally experienced and run away of the dictatorial state. So I think that it is probably one of the tech personality that I trust the most in the world.

ceinewydd 2y ago
https://x.com/filosottile/status/987376021589692416?s=21 https://x.com/filosottile/status/987376021589692416?s=21 I'm not sure that counts as an impeccable track record.
lxgr 2y ago
“Track record” is an incredibly poor indicator for the lack of a government backdoor, thinking back to Snowden, for example.
hamilyon2 2y ago
The latest evidence of wide cooperation of telegram and Russian officials: https://roskomsvoboda.org/ru/post/shutdown-v-baymake/ https://roskomsvoboda.org/ru/post/shutdown-v-baymake/
- codedokode 2y ago
  The article doesn't contain the evidence though; it claims that someone changed access to private for a Telegram group that covered the protests. However, as the article says, it could be done not only by Telegram, but by one of the administrators.
  - Glacia 2y ago
    Except there were multiple different groups that magically happen to go private at the same time. I'm not even going to mention how many people were arrested over telegram messages in russia.
Glacia 2y ago
Obviously FSB is not going to make a press release and be like "We have the keys LOL" so there would never be definitive proof. Fun fact: Telegram at some point was blocked in Russia for not giving FSB access to data. Later telegram was unblocked and is used extensively in Russia. It's not hard to figure out why it was unblocked.
- ivanmontillam 2y ago
  > It's not hard to figure out why it was unblocked. If you're implying it's backdoored, that's a wild mental gymnastics you made there. No hate, but your comment is speculative in nature.
- k1ndl1 2y ago
  It was unblocked because of the backlash from people, incl. Russian politicians who are heavy Telegram users. FSB has nothing to do with it.
  - Glacia 2y ago
    >It was unblocked because of the backlash from people, incl. Russian politicians who are heavy Telegram users. FSB has nothing to do with it. Saying Russian government would give a shit about people opinions, funny joke.
- roveo 2y ago
  Telegram wasn't fully blocked in Russia even for a single day. They tried to block it and failed miserably. The team actively circumvented the blocking by deploying to new IPs faster than they were blocked, and in addition to that every IT guy in Russia had a tgproxy instance running for family and friends. After a while they just stopped trying and decided that it's less reputational damage to just let it be.
  - Glacia 2y ago
    >After a while they just stopped trying and decided that it's less reputational damage to just let it be. That's not true. It's legally unblocked. the reason why it was unblocked was never published. "It was unblocked because they gave up" is just your interpretation of the events. Pretty naive one, in my opinion.
evilfred 2y ago
[flagged]
codedokode 2y ago
By the way, Dropbox had a person from the govt (Condoleezza Rice) on the Board of Directors, and people still entrusted their data to it.

chucke1992 2y ago

> Do you unironically believe it's not already backdoored for Russian government? Yes. You should read the history of Durov and why Telegram was created in the first place.

z_open 2y ago
Why don't you post it yourself. And why should I care about what he says when telegram has some of the worst default encryption settings among commonly used messaging apps in the west?
- chucke1992 2y ago
  Except Telegram is considered one of the most secured apps around. Obviously it cannot stop people from being stupid when they expose themselves. The very reason why France is not happy is that because they cannot get access to private chats and stuff. EU was (and is) pushing for the end of E2E encryption after all (it failed this time, but they will try again). Durov created Telegram because the russian government was trying to take over his original social network - VK (basically imagine USA gov taking over Facebook). Thus he sold his shared and left the country. I do find it hilarious to see apologists of government over-reach like you.
  - z_open 2y ago
    What about group chat encryption? You can not possible say telegram is more secure than signal or WhatsApp. What did I say that made me an apologist for government overreach? I recommend users use Signal? Your accusation is unfounded when I was complaining about a lack of encryption.
    - chucke1992 2y ago
      With Whatsapp it is pretty obvious at this point that it is in cahoot with governments in regards of backdoors and stuff. With Signal? Who knows? Maybe too. Governments don't go after services that they can access freely.

tssge 2y ago

[deleted]

lxgr 2y ago
Telegram has, by design, message content accessible to whoever runs the servers. WhatsApp has gone to great lengths to not have that. Obviously there’s client security, potential backdoors, unencrypted backups, and many other things to worry about. But I don’t see a scenario where it fares worse than Telegram, and many where it’s significantly better.
- arresin 2y ago
  Whatsapp has to have some kind of escape hatch if not back door simply because of the amount of heat it doesn’t get (think of all the regimes who are ok with it).
  - lxgr 2y ago
    I believe that escape hatch to be cloud backups, which are heavily encouraged by the UI and not end-to-end encrypted by default. iMessage has made the same compromise. As long as enough people click that checkbox, law enforcement has access and Meta/Apple are out of the news without having lied about or hidden anything.
evilfred 2y ago
telegram is undoubtedly influenced by the Russian govt https://www.wired.com/story/the-kremlin-has-entered-the-chat/ https://www.wired.com/story/the-kremlin-has-entered-the-chat...
jimbob45 2y ago
My understanding is that WhatsApp has never made claims comparable to Telegram or Signal. I also can’t tell if you’re being sincere. I was under the impression that Telegram was considered significantly less secure than Signal and that the matter was mostly settled. I’ve been seeing the following talking points repeated for years now. https://www.reddit.com/r/signal/comments/xk1jdw/comment/ipbvbx0/ https://www.reddit.com/r/signal/comments/xk1jdw/comment/ipbv...

alephnerd 2y ago

> Do you unironically believe it's not already backdoored for Russian government? To people arguing against this, Russia's Sovereign Wealth Fund RDIF has an ownership stake in Telegram after co-raising with Abu Dhabi's Mudabala in 2021 [0] Either way, Telegram is at the whims of MbZ, and if the UAE ever needs something from Russia, they'll use Durov and Telegram as collateral. The UAE's done the same thing with Pakistan (Musharraf, Nawaz Sharif), India (Dawood Ibrahim), Israel-Palestine (Mohammad Dahlan), Serbia (Belgrade Waterfront Project and Mohammad Dahlan), Turkiye (Mohammad Dahlan), etc. If the Telegram founders were truly opposed to Russia, they would have immigrated to Israel, the UK, Germany, Netherlands, or the US like most business dissidents in Russia. If VK wasn't stolen by an oligarch, they would have remained in Russia to this day. [0] - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-03-23/russia-mubadala-invest-in-telegram-after-kremlin-ban-failed?embedded-checkout=true https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-03-23/russia-mu...

GaggiX 2y ago

>Do you unironically believe it's not already backdoored for Russian government? Yes as Telegram was banned in Russia for a long time (or at least they tried) before giving up.

marcinzm 2y ago
If they backdoored it between those events then it’d be logical to unban it.
- GaggiX 2y ago
  There was no need, Russia did try by banning a lot of IP ranges but Telegram at the end was still running.

palata 2y ago

There is no need for a backdoor since the vast majority of messages on Telegram are not end-to-end encrypted. Just read from the server!

kgeist 2y ago

Durov was notorious in Russia for refusing to cooperate with FSB (successor to KGB), too. I remember when FSB asked him to give access to protester communications on VK (in 2011 during mass protests), he mockingly responded with a picture of a dog with its tongue out (showing your tongue means "I won't give it to ya" in Russian culture). That's why he left Russia, because he felt he'd get arrested soon. Quite ironic that he ended up getting arrested in the "free world", not Russia. Telegram was also banned in Russia for a few years.

codedokode 2y ago
And my intuition is that Telegram is going to become banned in Russia soon, as Youtube is being banned now and Telegram is the last popular application where you can find the content about war, protests or elections that govt doesn't like.
- kgeist 2y ago
  Telegram has also large Russian pro-war communities, and it's extensively used by soldiers deployed in Ukraine for communication. If pro-war channels outnumber opposition channels (and they probably do), Telegram probably won't be banned as long the government has no alternative. The fact of Durov getting arrested could be also used for propaganda purposes (no free speech in the West).
- foverzar 2y ago
  > And my intuition is that Telegram is going to become banned in Russia soon It had already happened with extreme humiliation of responsible agencies. > as Youtube is being banned now It's not banned, it's throttled because google kept abusing backbone networks once their CDNs had started to burn down and claiming that this is totally fine and fixable with direct BGP peerings with ISPs (yeah, right) It works just fine on mobile internet connection where traffic shaping is an inherent feature and it only works like shit on broadband where ISPs are only capable of sending TCP RST once the queue is over the limit. > Telegram is the last popular application where you can find the content about war, protests or elections that govt doesn't like Clearly you are not in touch with people in Russia and have never actually seen their social media. Or just being dramatic.

timcobb 2y ago

Yeah why would it be backdoored by the Russian government? Because Durov is Russian?

stiltzkin 2y ago

[flagged]