8 ms·

Out of Your Head

89 points by dnetesn 2y ago

md224 2y ago
> Once, after injecting himself with a large dose of morphine, he found himself hovering over an enormous battlefield, watching the armies of England and France drawn up for battle, and then realized he was witnessing the 1415 Battle of Agincourt... The vision seemed to last only a few minutes, but later, he discovered he’d been tripping for 13 hours. This doesn't make any sense... morphine is not a hallucinogen or a psychedelic. You don't "trip" on it. I have a feeling the journalist mixed something up here.
- swayvil 2y ago
  Drugs that are not-trippy at a small dose sometimes get trippy at a large dose.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- copperx 2y ago
  Opioids are not hallucinogens? They certainly are. Anyone who has been a caregiver to someone with prescription opioids can confirm.
- MathMonkeyMan 2y ago
  You can totally trip on morphine.
- samplatt 2y ago
  They mess a lot with your sleep in general, altering your lucid state, to the point that what might otherwise have just be a dream becomes something closer to a trip.
- worstspotgain 2y ago
  Maybe "lucid dream" would be a better description than "hallucination"? Were they technically awake or asleep? Something that feels like a few minutes but lasts 13 hours certainly sounds like induced sleep.
- mathieuh 2y ago
  It's not quite the same as a traditional hallucinogen but there are some vivid dreams. In fact, that's where the term "pipe dream" comes from, from the dreams that opium smokers would have while high. I have taken a lot of heroin in my life and although I never experienced something to the extent that Sacks is describing I did have some strange and very vivid daydreams while high.
- tazu 2y ago
  While "nodding", it can definitely be hallucinogenic. It's like surfing between taking too little and taking too much.
- kayodelycaon 2y ago
  I have a very similar reaction to codeine. Based on genetic testing, my body processes it much faster than normal, which is similar to increasing the dosage much higher.
swayvil 2y ago
Your head is like an island. All directions lead out. Which says something about how you might be travelling normally.
mathieuh 2y ago
I agree with Sacks. While taking large doses of LSD or DMT I had experiences with what felt like otherworldly entities, or a sense that some cosmic revelation was imminent, but once I'd come down I didn't think something had been revealed to me or that I had been in contact with some supernatural plane, I just thought "wow I was really fucking high". It was never a visual manifestation of a recognisable shape, it was just a sense that there was another consciousness in the room with me. I never saw machine elves or anything, I just felt strongly that there was a benevolent female presence in the corner of the room. Why I felt it was female I can't say but in the moment I was absolutely certain. I am almost pathologically sceptical and I have absolutely zero belief in anything metaphysical. I believe that capability is simply not within me. I can see how other people would believe that there is something beyond though.
- Nursie 2y ago
  I feel this about a lot of the apparent revelations that come out of LSD and other psychedelic use, particularly the revolutionary nature of psychedelics which (if only enough people would take them) would change the world, people would realise we don't need police, armies, governments wielding power over us, we can all get along in peace and harmony and create a new world of love, charity and understanding. When probing into what this might actually mean, there's never really any substance there. And from what I can tell most of the experiments in actually living these different lives in the 60s and 70s failed because when it comes down to it, communal living requires idealism, commitment and hard graft. Those last two are often missing and the first fades. I've had my "I am one with the fabric of the universe" moments. I've seen things of great beauty on psychedelics, I've had thoughts twist and turn in impossible ways... but in the end it would take extraordinary evidence to persuade me it's anything other then the subjective experience brought on by a drug twisting my brain. From the article - > If people say they’ve talked with angels or dead ancestors, should we dismiss them as raving, drug-addled trippers? No, because that's prejudicial and dismissive, but we probably should think of those experiences in terms of an internal psychedelic journey conjured up by the brain on drugs, rather than some sort of extrinsic interaction with the universe. At least until someone comes up with something other than speculation as evidence.
hrkucuk 2y ago
I don't believe in anything metaphysical, I believe all these things can be explained by what is "real". If I draw a circle and put two dots in it and a curve below the two dots, your brain will immediately recognize these shapes as a human face (smiley face). That means somewhere in your brain there is a mechanism to recognize faces. I believe in everybody's brain there exists such knowledge and reflexes that may become more prominent under the effect of some drugs - there is nothing unusual about that. I do believe this is very mysterious and interesting, and that it must be researched so we can learn more about it. But I find it wrong and dangerous to try to theorize that there is "something out there bigger than our brain". Like no, it is all in our brain - but that does not make this issue any less interesting. Brain is capable of great many things and great number of things can be revealed to an individual when their brain is functioning differently under some drugs. I just don't think this hints towards some metaphysical world of wonders that is otherwise hidden from our normal state of mind.
- rel_ic 2y ago
  I think it's pretty likely that there are sources of information we don't normally perceive. I mean at some point the theory of evolution says we didn't sense light, and then some mutation let us see what was, at the time, a metaphysical world of wonders that was otherwise hidden from our normal state of mind! We don't really know how brains work, or how reality works, so I think it's premature to be confident about either subject.
  - Flop7331 2y ago
    I've heard a hypothesis that suggests the evolution of eyes set off the Cambrian Explosion. Rather than a "a metaphysical world of wonders", it was a physical world of things to eat and be eaten by.
  - moffkalast 2y ago
    We have countless mechanical sensors and detectors that can sense just about everything there is in this universe, even neutrinos. Even if we magically manage to detect half of that it wouldn't show us anything we don't already know. Although it would be trippy to see the full EM spectrum.
FrustratedMonky 2y ago
Tangential question. Is Nautil.us worth the subscription. I'm trying to find a modern magazine that is like the old "OMNI" from the 70's and 80's. Wondering if this is it?
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
pressentiment 2y ago
I think there's something in how a good shrooms high makes you feel that 'you' are less real, and that something like nature is more cohesive and real than you are used to thinking about it. But as someone else said, the next day you don't care anymore and you don't actually think you unlocked a new dimension. The experience of what drugs feel like doesn't seem like a valid way to get at the true nature of anything.
widowlark 2y ago
All we experience is in our mind alone - psychedelics reveal nothing about the universe but they do reveal everything about our perception of it. It wont make you see colors that you are incapable of normally seeing, or hear things you are incapable of normally hearing, but it will re-arrange your senses to seem that way. IMO, we should not be fooled by these cheap sensory tricks and im disappointed Sacks has been.
- purplerabbit 2y ago
  Your comment is written as though the universe is something outside of ourselves. Our perception of the universe is part of the universe. We exist in the world and are a part of the world. Learning to think in new ways can be a powerful force.
  - widowlark 2y ago
    yes, we are part of the universe. But our perception does not change the reality of its existence, only our understanding of it.
nicbou 2y ago
There was this post from Scott Alexander which I can't find. The gist of it is that some drugs like caffeine and LSD made the brain overvalue patterns and connections, so that epiphanies that honestly aren't. I can't find it, and I remember that it was just the author's educated guess. Nonetheless it stuck with me.
timacles 2y ago
The main thing you get out of LSD and even THC is new pattern associations. Due to the way the brain works, and its constant desire to reduce resource usage, when our life consists of the same patterns, the brain will slowly tune them out. These drugs, by the simple virtue of making you feel "different", will force your brain to reassess all patterns. This is why creative types love these drugs, because they make you see regular things differently.

89 points by dnetesn 2y ago

> Once, after injecting himself with a large dose of morphine, he found himself hovering over an enormous battlefield, watching the armies of England and France drawn up for battle, and then realized he was witnessing the 1415 Battle of Agincourt... The vision seemed to last only a few minutes, but later, he discovered he’d been tripping for 13 hours. This doesn't make any sense... morphine is not a hallucinogen or a psychedelic. You don't "trip" on it. I have a feeling the journalist mixed something up here.

swayvil 2y ago
Drugs that are not-trippy at a small dose sometimes get trippy at a large dose.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
copperx 2y ago
Opioids are not hallucinogens? They certainly are. Anyone who has been a caregiver to someone with prescription opioids can confirm.
MathMonkeyMan 2y ago
You can totally trip on morphine.
samplatt 2y ago
They mess a lot with your sleep in general, altering your lucid state, to the point that what might otherwise have just be a dream becomes something closer to a trip.
worstspotgain 2y ago
Maybe "lucid dream" would be a better description than "hallucination"? Were they technically awake or asleep? Something that feels like a few minutes but lasts 13 hours certainly sounds like induced sleep.
mathieuh 2y ago
It's not quite the same as a traditional hallucinogen but there are some vivid dreams. In fact, that's where the term "pipe dream" comes from, from the dreams that opium smokers would have while high. I have taken a lot of heroin in my life and although I never experienced something to the extent that Sacks is describing I did have some strange and very vivid daydreams while high.
tazu 2y ago
While "nodding", it can definitely be hallucinogenic. It's like surfing between taking too little and taking too much.
kayodelycaon 2y ago
I have a very similar reaction to codeine. Based on genetic testing, my body processes it much faster than normal, which is similar to increasing the dosage much higher.

swayvil 2y ago

Your head is like an island. All directions lead out. Which says something about how you might be travelling normally.

mathieuh 2y ago

I agree with Sacks. While taking large doses of LSD or DMT I had experiences with what felt like otherworldly entities, or a sense that some cosmic revelation was imminent, but once I'd come down I didn't think something had been revealed to me or that I had been in contact with some supernatural plane, I just thought "wow I was really fucking high". It was never a visual manifestation of a recognisable shape, it was just a sense that there was another consciousness in the room with me. I never saw machine elves or anything, I just felt strongly that there was a benevolent female presence in the corner of the room. Why I felt it was female I can't say but in the moment I was absolutely certain. I am almost pathologically sceptical and I have absolutely zero belief in anything metaphysical. I believe that capability is simply not within me. I can see how other people would believe that there is something beyond though.

Nursie 2y ago
I feel this about a lot of the apparent revelations that come out of LSD and other psychedelic use, particularly the revolutionary nature of psychedelics which (if only enough people would take them) would change the world, people would realise we don't need police, armies, governments wielding power over us, we can all get along in peace and harmony and create a new world of love, charity and understanding. When probing into what this might actually mean, there's never really any substance there. And from what I can tell most of the experiments in actually living these different lives in the 60s and 70s failed because when it comes down to it, communal living requires idealism, commitment and hard graft. Those last two are often missing and the first fades. I've had my "I am one with the fabric of the universe" moments. I've seen things of great beauty on psychedelics, I've had thoughts twist and turn in impossible ways... but in the end it would take extraordinary evidence to persuade me it's anything other then the subjective experience brought on by a drug twisting my brain. From the article - > If people say they’ve talked with angels or dead ancestors, should we dismiss them as raving, drug-addled trippers? No, because that's prejudicial and dismissive, but we probably should think of those experiences in terms of an internal psychedelic journey conjured up by the brain on drugs, rather than some sort of extrinsic interaction with the universe. At least until someone comes up with something other than speculation as evidence.

hrkucuk 2y ago

I don't believe in anything metaphysical, I believe all these things can be explained by what is "real". If I draw a circle and put two dots in it and a curve below the two dots, your brain will immediately recognize these shapes as a human face (smiley face). That means somewhere in your brain there is a mechanism to recognize faces. I believe in everybody's brain there exists such knowledge and reflexes that may become more prominent under the effect of some drugs - there is nothing unusual about that. I do believe this is very mysterious and interesting, and that it must be researched so we can learn more about it. But I find it wrong and dangerous to try to theorize that there is "something out there bigger than our brain". Like no, it is all in our brain - but that does not make this issue any less interesting. Brain is capable of great many things and great number of things can be revealed to an individual when their brain is functioning differently under some drugs. I just don't think this hints towards some metaphysical world of wonders that is otherwise hidden from our normal state of mind.

rel_ic 2y ago
I think it's pretty likely that there are sources of information we don't normally perceive. I mean at some point the theory of evolution says we didn't sense light, and then some mutation let us see what was, at the time, a metaphysical world of wonders that was otherwise hidden from our normal state of mind! We don't really know how brains work, or how reality works, so I think it's premature to be confident about either subject.
- Flop7331 2y ago
  I've heard a hypothesis that suggests the evolution of eyes set off the Cambrian Explosion. Rather than a "a metaphysical world of wonders", it was a physical world of things to eat and be eaten by.
- moffkalast 2y ago
  We have countless mechanical sensors and detectors that can sense just about everything there is in this universe, even neutrinos. Even if we magically manage to detect half of that it wouldn't show us anything we don't already know. Although it would be trippy to see the full EM spectrum.

FrustratedMonky 2y ago

Tangential question. Is Nautil.us worth the subscription. I'm trying to find a modern magazine that is like the old "OMNI" from the 70's and 80's. Wondering if this is it?

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

pressentiment 2y ago

I think there's something in how a good shrooms high makes you feel that 'you' are less real, and that something like nature is more cohesive and real than you are used to thinking about it. But as someone else said, the next day you don't care anymore and you don't actually think you unlocked a new dimension. The experience of what drugs feel like doesn't seem like a valid way to get at the true nature of anything.

widowlark 2y ago

All we experience is in our mind alone - psychedelics reveal nothing about the universe but they do reveal everything about our perception of it. It wont make you see colors that you are incapable of normally seeing, or hear things you are incapable of normally hearing, but it will re-arrange your senses to seem that way. IMO, we should not be fooled by these cheap sensory tricks and im disappointed Sacks has been.

purplerabbit 2y ago
Your comment is written as though the universe is something outside of ourselves. Our perception of the universe is part of the universe. We exist in the world and are a part of the world. Learning to think in new ways can be a powerful force.
- widowlark 2y ago
  yes, we are part of the universe. But our perception does not change the reality of its existence, only our understanding of it.

nicbou 2y ago

There was this post from Scott Alexander which I can't find. The gist of it is that some drugs like caffeine and LSD made the brain overvalue patterns and connections, so that epiphanies that honestly aren't. I can't find it, and I remember that it was just the author's educated guess. Nonetheless it stuck with me.

timacles 2y ago

The main thing you get out of LSD and even THC is new pattern associations. Due to the way the brain works, and its constant desire to reduce resource usage, when our life consists of the same patterns, the brain will slowly tune them out. These drugs, by the simple virtue of making you feel "different", will force your brain to reassess all patterns. This is why creative types love these drugs, because they make you see regular things differently.