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You already have the freedom to make your own decisions. What you don't have is the freedom to endanger others. That's when we make laws, and those laws may be

by tensor 2y ago

You already have the freedom to make your own decisions. What you don't have is the freedom to endanger others. That's when we make laws, and those laws may be informed by science but they are not created or enforced by scientists. They are created and enforced by government agencies.

SV_BubbleTime 2y ago
> You already have the freedom to make your own decisions. It’s not like there have ever been consequences like “if I don’t do this I’ll lose my job” or “I can’t travel here”, or “I can attend this school, even online”, right? That would all be public policy that would never fly by the law. Am I correctly reading your post?
- orwin 2y ago
  I totally agree with this point of view on freedom, and that's my main issue with Ayn Rand followers, who do not understand basic power application effect (beside the fact that she read Kant's 'critic of pure reason' title, said to herself : 'he must be criticizing reasoning, science and the Enlightment, I must write and publish my basic thoughts on this' and now we have armies of idiots who never read Kant and try to criticize stuff he didn't say. Some are even famous.)
- tensor 2y ago
  People frequently confuse freedom and consequences, but choices always have consequences in society. All schools have rules of conduct, if you violate them your kid gets kicked out. Jobs also have rules of conduct, dress code, etc. And yes, not being vaccinated means you cannot have certain jobs. The vaccine debate is really quite straight forward. On one side you have people arguing that vaccines might cause damage and they shouldn't be forced to take them. Of course, you are not forced to take them, but then those people argue that you shouldn't have consequences from it like losing your job or your kid getting kicked out of school. On the other side, people argue that they shouldn't be forced to be exposed to someone who might cause them harm (by transmitting a preventable disease). This group also doesn't want negative consequences by having to hide from these people. So the argument is similar from both groups, but the difference is that there is virtually no evidence of the harms the first group claims to want to avoid, while an abundance of factual evidence of the deaths of people and children caused by the lack of vaccines or by the spread of disease due to enough people not getting a vaccine. Thus, as a society we choose to collectively put in a law siding with the second group. That's democracy. edit: but I'll note that actuality in many cases people do get to send their unvaccinated kids to school and do end up killing other people's kids as a result. I wonder why we're talking about charging scientists with crimes and not people who do things we know with 100% certainty cause kids to die.
  - miles 2y ago
    > there is virtually no evidence of the harms the first group claims to want to avoid There is not only evidence of harm: The Link Between J&J’s COVID Vaccine and Blood Clots: What You Need to Know https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/coronavirus-vaccine-blood-clots https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/coronavirus-vaccine-blood-... Scientists discover 'smoking gun' link between AstraZeneca vaccine and lethal blood clots https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/12/02/scientists-discover-smoking-gun-link-astrazeneca-lethal-blood/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/12/02/scientists-disco... New Zealand links 26-year-old man's death to Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/new-zealand-links-26-year-old-mans-death-pfizer-covid-19-vaccine-2021-12-20/ https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/new-zealand-links... but also lack of efficacy in stopping the spread: Coronavirus outbreak sidelines ship whose crew is fully immunized, Navy says https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2021/12/24/uss-milwaukee-covid-outbreak/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2021/12/24/... Covid cases hit records in South Korea and Singapore despite widespread vaccinations https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/01/world/covid-cases-hit-records-in-south-korea-and-singapore-despite-widespread-vaccinations.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/01/world/covid-cases-hit-rec... COVID Cases Are Surging in the Five Most Vaccinated States https://www.newsweek.com/covid-cases-are-surging-five-most-vaccinated-states-1653298 https://www.newsweek.com/covid-cases-are-surging-five-most-v...
    - tensor 2y ago
      You are clearly trolling as this has been beaten to death. But for the sake of other readers, getting COVID has a far higher chance of clots than the vaccines. Also, the vaccines significantly reduced the chance of death, even if they ultimately couldn’t stop the spread. So again, the big picture is extremely clear. Thankfully the right choices were made for society.
      - matheusmoreira 2y ago
        You're not wrong. Vaccines in general have a favorable risk/benefit ratio. The problem is I frequently see people on social media claiming that vaccines have zero risks and contraindications and that they do prevent transmission. I've seen governments saying that. This is the sort of disinformation that creates and spreads anti-vaccination ideas. All it takes is for someone to get skeptical and look it up. They will feel betrayed by the so called "authorities" and will never trust them again. It's even worse when said "authorities" want to vaccinate people forcefully as a matter of public policy. People don't enjoy having their autonomy disrespected. Especially comical are the governments that censor people for posting "fake news" only to end up spreading vaccine disinformation, and when it's pointed out they double down on those claims and do everything they can to coerce people into getting them.
- armada651 2y ago
  > “I can’t travel here” Being allowed to enter another country is a privilege, not a right. This is something people who have passports that allow visa-free travel to almost anywhere often forget. Thus if another country doesn't want you to unnecessarily become a burden on their healthcare system it is not unreasonable for them to demand you've gotten vaccinated. Even if there are risks associated with it, you will have to take those risks to earn the privilege.
kbolino 2y ago
Viewed skeptically rather than apologetically, it seems like the fundamental concepts of society (like "freedom" and its limits) are nebulous and mutable, and the fundamental processes of society (like how ideas become law) are inscrutable and unaccountable.

by tensor 2y ago

SV_BubbleTime 2y ago

> You already have the freedom to make your own decisions. It’s not like there have ever been consequences like “if I don’t do this I’ll lose my job” or “I can’t travel here”, or “I can attend this school, even online”, right? That would all be public policy that would never fly by the law. Am I correctly reading your post?

orwin 2y ago
I totally agree with this point of view on freedom, and that's my main issue with Ayn Rand followers, who do not understand basic power application effect (beside the fact that she read Kant's 'critic of pure reason' title, said to herself : 'he must be criticizing reasoning, science and the Enlightment, I must write and publish my basic thoughts on this' and now we have armies of idiots who never read Kant and try to criticize stuff he didn't say. Some are even famous.)
tensor 2y ago
People frequently confuse freedom and consequences, but choices always have consequences in society. All schools have rules of conduct, if you violate them your kid gets kicked out. Jobs also have rules of conduct, dress code, etc. And yes, not being vaccinated means you cannot have certain jobs. The vaccine debate is really quite straight forward. On one side you have people arguing that vaccines might cause damage and they shouldn't be forced to take them. Of course, you are not forced to take them, but then those people argue that you shouldn't have consequences from it like losing your job or your kid getting kicked out of school. On the other side, people argue that they shouldn't be forced to be exposed to someone who might cause them harm (by transmitting a preventable disease). This group also doesn't want negative consequences by having to hide from these people. So the argument is similar from both groups, but the difference is that there is virtually no evidence of the harms the first group claims to want to avoid, while an abundance of factual evidence of the deaths of people and children caused by the lack of vaccines or by the spread of disease due to enough people not getting a vaccine. Thus, as a society we choose to collectively put in a law siding with the second group. That's democracy. edit: but I'll note that actuality in many cases people do get to send their unvaccinated kids to school and do end up killing other people's kids as a result. I wonder why we're talking about charging scientists with crimes and not people who do things we know with 100% certainty cause kids to die.
- miles 2y ago
  > there is virtually no evidence of the harms the first group claims to want to avoid There is not only evidence of harm: The Link Between J&J’s COVID Vaccine and Blood Clots: What You Need to Know https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/coronavirus-vaccine-blood-clots https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/coronavirus-vaccine-blood-... Scientists discover 'smoking gun' link between AstraZeneca vaccine and lethal blood clots https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/12/02/scientists-discover-smoking-gun-link-astrazeneca-lethal-blood/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/12/02/scientists-disco... New Zealand links 26-year-old man's death to Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/new-zealand-links-26-year-old-mans-death-pfizer-covid-19-vaccine-2021-12-20/ https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/new-zealand-links... but also lack of efficacy in stopping the spread: Coronavirus outbreak sidelines ship whose crew is fully immunized, Navy says https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2021/12/24/uss-milwaukee-covid-outbreak/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2021/12/24/... Covid cases hit records in South Korea and Singapore despite widespread vaccinations https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/01/world/covid-cases-hit-records-in-south-korea-and-singapore-despite-widespread-vaccinations.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/01/world/covid-cases-hit-rec... COVID Cases Are Surging in the Five Most Vaccinated States https://www.newsweek.com/covid-cases-are-surging-five-most-vaccinated-states-1653298 https://www.newsweek.com/covid-cases-are-surging-five-most-v...
  - tensor 2y ago
    You are clearly trolling as this has been beaten to death. But for the sake of other readers, getting COVID has a far higher chance of clots than the vaccines. Also, the vaccines significantly reduced the chance of death, even if they ultimately couldn’t stop the spread. So again, the big picture is extremely clear. Thankfully the right choices were made for society.
    - matheusmoreira 2y ago
      You're not wrong. Vaccines in general have a favorable risk/benefit ratio. The problem is I frequently see people on social media claiming that vaccines have zero risks and contraindications and that they do prevent transmission. I've seen governments saying that. This is the sort of disinformation that creates and spreads anti-vaccination ideas. All it takes is for someone to get skeptical and look it up. They will feel betrayed by the so called "authorities" and will never trust them again. It's even worse when said "authorities" want to vaccinate people forcefully as a matter of public policy. People don't enjoy having their autonomy disrespected. Especially comical are the governments that censor people for posting "fake news" only to end up spreading vaccine disinformation, and when it's pointed out they double down on those claims and do everything they can to coerce people into getting them.
armada651 2y ago
> “I can’t travel here” Being allowed to enter another country is a privilege, not a right. This is something people who have passports that allow visa-free travel to almost anywhere often forget. Thus if another country doesn't want you to unnecessarily become a burden on their healthcare system it is not unreasonable for them to demand you've gotten vaccinated. Even if there are risks associated with it, you will have to take those risks to earn the privilege.

kbolino 2y ago

Viewed skeptically rather than apologetically, it seems like the fundamental concepts of society (like "freedom" and its limits) are nebulous and mutable, and the fundamental processes of society (like how ideas become law) are inscrutable and unaccountable.