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Almost all software outsourcing I have seen end up costing more in reputation damage, drop in quality, bug pilling up, incompetent programmers, etc. World would

by Sytten 2y ago

Almost all software outsourcing I have seen end up costing more in reputation damage, drop in quality, bug pilling up, incompetent programmers, etc. World would be a better place if MBA managers were not running it. Anyway this is why professional engineering were created, to protect the public against those exact bad practices. If we were serious about fixing the issue, we have the solution.

gavinhoward 2y ago
And I already have a plan for doing so: https://gavinhoward.com/2024/06/a-plan-for-professionalism/ https://gavinhoward.com/2024/06/a-plan-for-professionalism/ .
- CM30 2y ago
  The problem with any professionalism setup is that software engineering is a very broad field whose use cases range from "it doesn't matter, it's mostly for fun" and "this software runs the international space station". On the one hand, there should probably be some sort of certification or liability if you're writing code for NASA or Boeing or Airbus or maybe the New York Stock Exchange or what not, where a mistake could cost billions of dollars and put lives at risk. At the same time though, there's also stuff like the video games industry, people developing programs for fun, blogs and fan sites and things that are free and mostly static, video game mods and hacks and about 99% of small business and organisation websites where frankly it doesn't matter that much how well they're coded or how stable they are or what not. If my bank screws up and gives away all my money, that's a problem. If my copy of Tears of the Kingdom breaks, that's not a big deal (and might even be a benefit). If there's any sort of professionalism or certification or requirement, it should probably be limited to industries and fields where the consequences of screwing up are life changing for a high number of people.
  - gavinhoward 2y ago
    Yes, which is why https://gavinhoward.com/2023/11/how-to-fund-foss-save-it-from-the-cra-and-improve-cybersecurity/#software-certification https://gavinhoward.com/2023/11/how-to-fund-foss-save-it-fro... specifically calls that out.
throwaway48540 2y ago
So they'd create a subsidiary at the location of the contractors, which is already a standard practice...
krageon 2y ago
[flagged]
- lovethevoid 2y ago
  They are only but a symptom.
- dang 2y ago
  Ok, but please don't fulminate on Hacker News. This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
hintymad 2y ago
A key factor in such failure is misaligned incentives. A team in a company is more likely interested in solving problems for the longevity of the company, so they think long term and they iterate. They also learn about the domain over the years. On the other hand, outsourcing companies just want to get a project done in time and under budget, and their hire the least qualified people to just meet the negotiated bar. To that end, there's really no incentive for an outsourcing company to hone any kinds of craftsmanship (there are exceptions in small and specialized consulting firms, of course). Plus, there's always information loss and distortion when a company communicates their needs to an outsourcing vendor. Consequently, all hell will break lose when a project is complicated enough.
kikimora 2y ago
It is not necessarily outsourcing fault but rather “people is a resource” mentality. This mentality leads to outsourcing to cheap locations because they are cheap. But I’ve seen in other context as well.

by Sytten 2y ago

gavinhoward 2y ago

And I already have a plan for doing so: https://gavinhoward.com/2024/06/a-plan-for-professionalism/ https://gavinhoward.com/2024/06/a-plan-for-professionalism/ .

CM30 2y ago
The problem with any professionalism setup is that software engineering is a very broad field whose use cases range from "it doesn't matter, it's mostly for fun" and "this software runs the international space station". On the one hand, there should probably be some sort of certification or liability if you're writing code for NASA or Boeing or Airbus or maybe the New York Stock Exchange or what not, where a mistake could cost billions of dollars and put lives at risk. At the same time though, there's also stuff like the video games industry, people developing programs for fun, blogs and fan sites and things that are free and mostly static, video game mods and hacks and about 99% of small business and organisation websites where frankly it doesn't matter that much how well they're coded or how stable they are or what not. If my bank screws up and gives away all my money, that's a problem. If my copy of Tears of the Kingdom breaks, that's not a big deal (and might even be a benefit). If there's any sort of professionalism or certification or requirement, it should probably be limited to industries and fields where the consequences of screwing up are life changing for a high number of people.
- gavinhoward 2y ago
  Yes, which is why https://gavinhoward.com/2023/11/how-to-fund-foss-save-it-from-the-cra-and-improve-cybersecurity/#software-certification https://gavinhoward.com/2023/11/how-to-fund-foss-save-it-fro... specifically calls that out.

throwaway48540 2y ago

So they'd create a subsidiary at the location of the contractors, which is already a standard practice...

krageon 2y ago

[flagged]

lovethevoid 2y ago
They are only but a symptom.
dang 2y ago
Ok, but please don't fulminate on Hacker News. This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

hintymad 2y ago

A key factor in such failure is misaligned incentives. A team in a company is more likely interested in solving problems for the longevity of the company, so they think long term and they iterate. They also learn about the domain over the years. On the other hand, outsourcing companies just want to get a project done in time and under budget, and their hire the least qualified people to just meet the negotiated bar. To that end, there's really no incentive for an outsourcing company to hone any kinds of craftsmanship (there are exceptions in small and specialized consulting firms, of course). Plus, there's always information loss and distortion when a company communicates their needs to an outsourcing vendor. Consequently, all hell will break lose when a project is complicated enough.

kikimora 2y ago

It is not necessarily outsourcing fault but rather “people is a resource” mentality. This mentality leads to outsourcing to cheap locations because they are cheap. But I’ve seen in other context as well.