7 ms·

Modern Wardriving (2023)

119 points by zdw 2y ago

bluedino 2y ago
A friend and I used to do this, using the USB GPS reciever from Microsoft Streets and Trips, and then an Orinoco PC Card that let us use an external antenna that we got from a Linksys home AP/router. It was fun seeing all the networks on the map when we got home. I think the original plan was to send out flyers to these businesses offering networking/IT services but we never got that far (especially to the ones with open networks)
- EvanAnderson 2y ago
  I had a magnetic mount antenna on my car and a marine GPS that I used with Netstumbler sometime around 2001. I used an Orinoco PC Card adapter, too. I remember the external antenna connection was very fiddly and fragile. I would run the rig anytime I had a long trip to take. It was fun to see the relatively huge number of networks around bigger cities, as compared to the sparseness of rural Ohio where I lived. I still remember a few of the more amusing network names when I drive past their locations. I can't ever drive on I-75 south of Bowling Green, OH without thinking of "Chickenfeet".
  - sandworm101 2y ago
    I had a similar setup that i used while driving cross country ~2002. I used to pull into trucker rest areas to borrow wifi. I had more than a couple ask me about the magnetic antenna.
    - ljf 2y ago
      Trucker rest stops had WiFi in 2002? That is awesome, I doubt we got similar services in the UK until 2015 or later.
      - bluedino 2y ago
        https://www.chicagotribune.com/2003/12/27/the-wireless-highway/ https://www.chicagotribune.com/2003/12/27/the-wireless-highw...
ape4 2y ago
The rumor is that the Google Maps car does this.
- srmarm 2y ago
  This has been a known fact for some time https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/may/15/google-admits-storing-private-data https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/may/15/google-ad...
dtx1 2y ago
I don't quite get the point of this. Basically any home or small buisness router is going to have a password or it's a public wifi hotspot anyway. Am I missing anything?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- asynchronous 2y ago
  Back in the day it was a way to capture a lot of handshakes from a lot of different WiFi networks, then offline and back home crack the passwords and get a growing list of networks you could get into. But all that to say that hackers don’t exactly need a reason to have a hobby.
- metrix 2y ago
  It's not to get into a network, it's just to list where they're at.. For points. Similar to internet points :). There's no hacking involved just nerds being nerds What you find shows up here: https://wigle.net/ https://wigle.net/ As you can see there's quite a few people who do it
  - niceguy4 2y ago
    Wardriving for sex toys! https://www.pentestpartners.com/security-blog/screwdriving-locating-and-exploiting-smart-adult-toys/ https://www.pentestpartners.com/security-blog/screwdriving-l...
  - SpaceLawnmower 2y ago
    The "What has this project been used for?" section in the wigle FAQ is not very compelling tbh. Now that most routers ship WPA-2 secured by default and you can find free wifi everywhere, I think the most valid use that remains is finding malicious networks. But it seems to me that by and large this is nerds doing free work for the people who use their data commercially which seems kind of anti-hacker.
    - 2y ago
Brechreiz 2y ago
Why is it called that?
- dylan604 2y ago
  It's a play off of the war dialing phrase where you would have your computer dial every phone number within a prefix. 212-555-0001, -0002,... -9999. You would log every number that was answered by another computer for later investigation. Classic movie scene based on the concept from War Games: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb1r_uKOew4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb1r_uKOew4
breck 2y ago
In 1895 a young Italian studying Maxwell's equations wondered if perhaps you didn't need wires to send an electromagnetic message, and after months of tinkering beamed the first radio message which rang a bell on the other side of his parent's attic. The first person he showed this to was his mother, who to her credit didn't accuse him of witchcraft but gave him a hug and supported him in all his future ventures. He then went on to start a company building useful things on top of this discovery, including the first transatlantic wireless radio that saved tens of thousands of lives and is no doubt in part responsible for many of you alive reading this today. Fast forward a century and skip the long hours and blood, sweat, and tears of millions of scientists and engineers and technicians and factory workers who have further built this technology so instead of just sending Morse code wirelessly at a few words per minute, we can send all of humanity's information to everyone on earth in seconds. Wifi is one of the most beautiful creations and technological storylines in all of history. Let's keep it open and free and not sully it with ads and passwords.
- devilbunny 2y ago
  WiFi is wonderful magic, but I’m not giving you the password to my private network.
  - breck 2y ago
    Why not make your community better by having your router also broadcast an open public network?
    - patrick451 2y ago
      For the same reasons I don't invite the entire neighborhood into my kitchen for dinner every night. If people want wifi, they can buy it themselves.
      - cess11 2y ago
        They might be dissidents that don't want their internet traffic associated with their physical identity, which makes it quite hard to "buy it themselves" in places where cash isn't used or ID cards are commonly registered.
firesteelrain 2y ago
Google productionized this with their Google Maps product. It’s how they know more about where you are by utilizing WiFi signals.
- AlbertCory 2y ago
  Indeed, that's how they map the inside of a shopping mall or subway stop.
- Piraty 2y ago
  Since 2024-03, at least Apple allows AP owners to opt out. (search for "_nomap") https://web.archive.org/web/20240328071851/https://support.apple.com/en-us/102515 https://web.archive.org/web/20240328071851/https://support.a...
  - sulandor 2y ago
    opt-out is a bandaid, not a solution
RedAuburn 2y ago
Instead of using all this fancy hardware just to contribute to a proprietary database, i'd recommend uploading to BeaconDB[1] using NeoStumbler[2] on your phone. [1] https://beacondb.net/ https://beacondb.net/ [2] https://github.com/mjaakko/NeoStumbler https://github.com/mjaakko/NeoStumbler
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- StrLght 2y ago
  Thanks for the heads up! I'm going to report a few APs during my next bike ride
- eskibars 2y ago
  I don't really understand from reading over this: how is this not just another proprietary database? There's no data dump: I understand why, but it means everything is behind a pretty proprietary offering. And one which "only" appears to provide geolocation, which is fine if that's what you're interested in bit which is pretty orthogonal to the article's apparent goals where the author is interested in wireless security specifically
- Piraty 2y ago
  https://krebsonsecurity.com/2024/05/why-your-wi-fi-router-doubles-as-an-apple-airtag/ https://krebsonsecurity.com/2024/05/why-your-wi-fi-router-do...
helpfulContrib 2y ago
[dead]
spacecadet 2y ago
I operate a combination of mobile and fixed point Pwnagotchis across NYC and Brooklyn, I push all the pcaps back to my home lab, which operates in a cluster of distributed hash crackers. They all utilize GPS for AP mapping as well. Roughly 5,000 passwords since 2020. Highly recommend the project for anyone interested in hardware, wardriving, and a tiny bit of AI. 99% of passwords a junk, lol. At this point I can probably guess them faster, but the project has its moments. Flipper is ok. HackRF and M5 much much better.
itissid 2y ago
1. Of the many problems, one critical issue with using this for anything other than security research, is accurate mapping in urban dense areas. Essentially, you are constructing a map of Wi-Fi->Lat/Long or BLE -> Lat/Long. I believe google's solution to this is 3D modeling of buildings[1] based on research from people like Paul Groves[2]. 2. I think the other issue, not with wardriving but with use of such open source infrastructure in general, is launching products that could rely on this mapping. It requires a lot of money and is a bit of a chicken & egg problem. It's also a privacy concern to collect all that Wifi/BLE data for any commercial use. 3. I was also saddened to know about Mozilla MLS shutting down due to f**ng patent trolls[3] that mean that until such competition sucking scum is taken down these technologies will remain boxed to hobby land, small scale diy-ism and security research. [1] https://insidegnss.com/end-game-for-urban-gnss-googles-use-of-3d-building-models/ https://insidegnss.com/end-game-for-urban-gnss-googles-use-o... [2] https://profiles.ucl.ac.uk/6850 https://profiles.ucl.ac.uk/6850 [3] https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/retiring-the-mozilla-location-service/128693 https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/retiring-the-mozilla-locatio...
dosman33 2y ago
Ah yes, memories of my laptop, an Orinoco card, and Netstumbler cruising down the highway during my day-job. Shortly after that I added an X-10 video receiver and a USB Hauppauge WinTV adapter to capture video transmitters too. I'd reach over and trigger a screen-shot whenever live video came into view. Once in a while I'd even capture myself driving through a parking lot or something on the feed.
gravitronic 2y ago
War driving with a friend, meeting his lady friend where she waited tables at Denny's, and then meeting her roommate is how I met my wife
- kfarr 2y ago
  Lovedriving
green-salt 2y ago
Something fun I did in 2015ish was zip tying an Intel compute stick, a small usb power brick, and an Alfa usb wifi thing to my drone and ran kismet on it in the air and SSHed in from my laptop on the ground. Could see quite a lot of APs from above without clutter on the ground.
nosmokewhereiam 2y ago
Netstumbler sound intensifies!
user070223 2y ago
You can somewhat do it in Android, In the past by installing apps which worked as plugin for MicroG UnifiedNLP location provider. Now it's baked into MicroG GMSCore And you can configure external loaction service provider (or rely on GPS) like Apple, Google, Mozilla(before it was retired), BeaconDB etc.

119 points by zdw 2y ago

A friend and I used to do this, using the USB GPS reciever from Microsoft Streets and Trips, and then an Orinoco PC Card that let us use an external antenna that we got from a Linksys home AP/router. It was fun seeing all the networks on the map when we got home. I think the original plan was to send out flyers to these businesses offering networking/IT services but we never got that far (especially to the ones with open networks)

EvanAnderson 2y ago
I had a magnetic mount antenna on my car and a marine GPS that I used with Netstumbler sometime around 2001. I used an Orinoco PC Card adapter, too. I remember the external antenna connection was very fiddly and fragile. I would run the rig anytime I had a long trip to take. It was fun to see the relatively huge number of networks around bigger cities, as compared to the sparseness of rural Ohio where I lived. I still remember a few of the more amusing network names when I drive past their locations. I can't ever drive on I-75 south of Bowling Green, OH without thinking of "Chickenfeet".
- sandworm101 2y ago
  I had a similar setup that i used while driving cross country ~2002. I used to pull into trucker rest areas to borrow wifi. I had more than a couple ask me about the magnetic antenna.
  - ljf 2y ago
    Trucker rest stops had WiFi in 2002? That is awesome, I doubt we got similar services in the UK until 2015 or later.
    - bluedino 2y ago
      https://www.chicagotribune.com/2003/12/27/the-wireless-highway/ https://www.chicagotribune.com/2003/12/27/the-wireless-highw...

ape4 2y ago

The rumor is that the Google Maps car does this.

srmarm 2y ago
This has been a known fact for some time https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/may/15/google-admits-storing-private-data https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/may/15/google-ad...

dtx1 2y ago

I don't quite get the point of this. Basically any home or small buisness router is going to have a password or it's a public wifi hotspot anyway. Am I missing anything?

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
asynchronous 2y ago
Back in the day it was a way to capture a lot of handshakes from a lot of different WiFi networks, then offline and back home crack the passwords and get a growing list of networks you could get into. But all that to say that hackers don’t exactly need a reason to have a hobby.
metrix 2y ago
It's not to get into a network, it's just to list where they're at.. For points. Similar to internet points :). There's no hacking involved just nerds being nerds What you find shows up here: https://wigle.net/ https://wigle.net/ As you can see there's quite a few people who do it
- niceguy4 2y ago
  Wardriving for sex toys! https://www.pentestpartners.com/security-blog/screwdriving-locating-and-exploiting-smart-adult-toys/ https://www.pentestpartners.com/security-blog/screwdriving-l...
- SpaceLawnmower 2y ago
  The "What has this project been used for?" section in the wigle FAQ is not very compelling tbh. Now that most routers ship WPA-2 secured by default and you can find free wifi everywhere, I think the most valid use that remains is finding malicious networks. But it seems to me that by and large this is nerds doing free work for the people who use their data commercially which seems kind of anti-hacker.
  - 2y ago

Brechreiz 2y ago

Why is it called that?

dylan604 2y ago
It's a play off of the war dialing phrase where you would have your computer dial every phone number within a prefix. 212-555-0001, -0002,... -9999. You would log every number that was answered by another computer for later investigation. Classic movie scene based on the concept from War Games: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb1r_uKOew4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb1r_uKOew4

breck 2y ago

In 1895 a young Italian studying Maxwell's equations wondered if perhaps you didn't need wires to send an electromagnetic message, and after months of tinkering beamed the first radio message which rang a bell on the other side of his parent's attic. The first person he showed this to was his mother, who to her credit didn't accuse him of witchcraft but gave him a hug and supported him in all his future ventures. He then went on to start a company building useful things on top of this discovery, including the first transatlantic wireless radio that saved tens of thousands of lives and is no doubt in part responsible for many of you alive reading this today. Fast forward a century and skip the long hours and blood, sweat, and tears of millions of scientists and engineers and technicians and factory workers who have further built this technology so instead of just sending Morse code wirelessly at a few words per minute, we can send all of humanity's information to everyone on earth in seconds. Wifi is one of the most beautiful creations and technological storylines in all of history. Let's keep it open and free and not sully it with ads and passwords.

devilbunny 2y ago
WiFi is wonderful magic, but I’m not giving you the password to my private network.
- breck 2y ago
  Why not make your community better by having your router also broadcast an open public network?
  - patrick451 2y ago
    For the same reasons I don't invite the entire neighborhood into my kitchen for dinner every night. If people want wifi, they can buy it themselves.
    - cess11 2y ago
      They might be dissidents that don't want their internet traffic associated with their physical identity, which makes it quite hard to "buy it themselves" in places where cash isn't used or ID cards are commonly registered.

firesteelrain 2y ago

Google productionized this with their Google Maps product. It’s how they know more about where you are by utilizing WiFi signals.

AlbertCory 2y ago
Indeed, that's how they map the inside of a shopping mall or subway stop.
Piraty 2y ago
Since 2024-03, at least Apple allows AP owners to opt out. (search for "_nomap") https://web.archive.org/web/20240328071851/https://support.apple.com/en-us/102515 https://web.archive.org/web/20240328071851/https://support.a...
- sulandor 2y ago
  opt-out is a bandaid, not a solution

RedAuburn 2y ago

Instead of using all this fancy hardware just to contribute to a proprietary database, i'd recommend uploading to BeaconDB[1] using NeoStumbler[2] on your phone. [1] https://beacondb.net/ https://beacondb.net/ [2] https://github.com/mjaakko/NeoStumbler https://github.com/mjaakko/NeoStumbler

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
StrLght 2y ago
Thanks for the heads up! I'm going to report a few APs during my next bike ride
eskibars 2y ago
I don't really understand from reading over this: how is this not just another proprietary database? There's no data dump: I understand why, but it means everything is behind a pretty proprietary offering. And one which "only" appears to provide geolocation, which is fine if that's what you're interested in bit which is pretty orthogonal to the article's apparent goals where the author is interested in wireless security specifically
Piraty 2y ago
https://krebsonsecurity.com/2024/05/why-your-wi-fi-router-doubles-as-an-apple-airtag/ https://krebsonsecurity.com/2024/05/why-your-wi-fi-router-do...

helpfulContrib 2y ago

[dead]

spacecadet 2y ago

I operate a combination of mobile and fixed point Pwnagotchis across NYC and Brooklyn, I push all the pcaps back to my home lab, which operates in a cluster of distributed hash crackers. They all utilize GPS for AP mapping as well. Roughly 5,000 passwords since 2020. Highly recommend the project for anyone interested in hardware, wardriving, and a tiny bit of AI. 99% of passwords a junk, lol. At this point I can probably guess them faster, but the project has its moments. Flipper is ok. HackRF and M5 much much better.

itissid 2y ago

1. Of the many problems, one critical issue with using this for anything other than security research, is accurate mapping in urban dense areas. Essentially, you are constructing a map of Wi-Fi->Lat/Long or BLE -> Lat/Long. I believe google's solution to this is 3D modeling of buildings[1] based on research from people like Paul Groves[2]. 2. I think the other issue, not with wardriving but with use of such open source infrastructure in general, is launching products that could rely on this mapping. It requires a lot of money and is a bit of a chicken & egg problem. It's also a privacy concern to collect all that Wifi/BLE data for any commercial use. 3. I was also saddened to know about Mozilla MLS shutting down due to f**ng patent trolls[3] that mean that until such competition sucking scum is taken down these technologies will remain boxed to hobby land, small scale diy-ism and security research. [1] https://insidegnss.com/end-game-for-urban-gnss-googles-use-of-3d-building-models/ https://insidegnss.com/end-game-for-urban-gnss-googles-use-o... [2] https://profiles.ucl.ac.uk/6850 https://profiles.ucl.ac.uk/6850 [3] https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/retiring-the-mozilla-location-service/128693 https://discourse.mozilla.org/t/retiring-the-mozilla-locatio...

dosman33 2y ago

Ah yes, memories of my laptop, an Orinoco card, and Netstumbler cruising down the highway during my day-job. Shortly after that I added an X-10 video receiver and a USB Hauppauge WinTV adapter to capture video transmitters too. I'd reach over and trigger a screen-shot whenever live video came into view. Once in a while I'd even capture myself driving through a parking lot or something on the feed.

gravitronic 2y ago

War driving with a friend, meeting his lady friend where she waited tables at Denny's, and then meeting her roommate is how I met my wife

kfarr 2y ago
Lovedriving

green-salt 2y ago

Something fun I did in 2015ish was zip tying an Intel compute stick, a small usb power brick, and an Alfa usb wifi thing to my drone and ran kismet on it in the air and SSHed in from my laptop on the ground. Could see quite a lot of APs from above without clutter on the ground.

nosmokewhereiam 2y ago

Netstumbler sound intensifies!

user070223 2y ago

You can somewhat do it in Android, In the past by installing apps which worked as plugin for MicroG UnifiedNLP location provider. Now it's baked into MicroG GMSCore And you can configure external loaction service provider (or rely on GPS) like Apple, Google, Mozilla(before it was retired), BeaconDB etc.