4 ms·

That’s exactly what pension funds in Europe do, though. Private organisations, sure, but you are required by law to join one. And often per job type there is on

That’s exactly what pension funds in Europe do, though. Private organisations, sure, but you are required by law to join one. And often per job type there is one (or two) which you then have to pick.

anovikov 2y ago
Doing so will mean turning American economy to the like of European. That is, socialism, generational stagnation and people checking checkboxes rather than doing things. Why not just educate people into investing better instead? It has a side consequence of (purely by chance) making some people multimillionaire heirs simply because their granny lived a very long life and markets were good, thus creating a lot of surplus money to spend or invest. Old people tend to be stingy so that money is unlikely to be spent before their death.
- wormlord 2y ago
  The US model relies on perpetual growth, when in reality the problem is "do we have enough people to take care of the elderly". The issue is one of physical capital and human capital. The answer today is YES we have enough of both of those things to take care of our elderly, however we direct that human labor and capital towards things that produce more "value". There is very little value in taking care of old people. Unless the government mandates that some proportion of the economy is dedicated to taking care of the elderly and expecting nothing in return, we are forced to rely on ponzi schemes. And yes, this may be "socialism" but who cares? The government already owns all the land and all the dollars in circulation, they just lend them to you. The illusion of freedom is shattered for you by the word "socialism" but make no mistake this country is not some libertarian paradise.
- Rhapso 2y ago
  > educate people into investing better instead So 401ks were intended to do this in a way. I think it was the greatest theft of a generation. "Lets incentivize and normalize the middle class to give the rich their retirement funds to play with." In general stock investment does nothing but make the distribution of wealth more and more lopsided. For every dollar gained by the poorer the rich gain more. When the rich gain more, they get to leverage the new capital to get even more next time in a positive feedback loop.
- troyvit 2y ago
  Man I hear that so much on HN. I'd never been to Europe until 2021, and I met so many happy, beautiful, productive people who enjoyed healthy food, great booze, love, and just LIFE compared to the U.S. Here on the Colorado front range it's all scrambling to keep an edge, trying not to look homeless people in the eye, taking as much as you can, working killer hours for (lots of) cash that we then blow on stupid plastic shit .... Sure many of the people I talked with complained about the government stepping on its own toes to try to increase tourism or provide grants for building new things, etc., but I also saw women walking alone in the middle of capital cities at midnight because it was perfectly safe to do so. Granted this is just one small country in Europe but if that's what socialism, generational stagnation, and people checking checkboxes looks like then sign me up. That said ... > Why not just educate people into investing better instead? Yes! This along with critical thinking about social media, lessons on how to fill out your taxes, fostering an interest in local politics over national politics, and maybe America can get its head out of its ass and actually produce happiness instead of just money.
  - oceanplexian 2y ago
    As they say, the grass is always greener. I’m lucky to have worked with enough colleagues who have immigrated from Europe to realize that the situation there is far from perfect. For example they are making 30-50% the pay of a software engineer in California or New York, and that’s in a “rich” european country like Germany or France. The chance of owning a house is almost impossible. They don’t have access to open spaces even remotely like Colorado. Obviously what you prefer will be up to you, but the US has a lot more options in terms of the lifestyle you can choose from.
    - anovikov 2y ago
      That. And more generally, there's almost no chance to change your life for the better. Rich people there are those who became rich before this system was put in place (before WWII that is, sometimes in the XIX century or before), and then just pass the wealth down the generations. Or those who immigrated having earned (or stolen) the wealth abroad. For others, there's really no hope of breaking out of endless toil for mediocre wage. And yes, on the flip side, it's really hard to fall through the cracks completely, but that's what it is: to prevent people from losing, we also need to prevent them from winning - you can't have one without the other. And, collectively, they just stagnate. There's no progress at all in any side of life, while America still enjoys relatively quick - even if very unevenly distributed - economic growth.
- Apocryphon 2y ago
  What are your thoughts on the Chinese economy?
  - anovikov 2y ago
    They have none of that shit and thus growing fast. No social guarantees. No pensions. Effectively no unemployment benefits. Labour is a resource and nothing more than that.
    - Apocryphon 2y ago
      The faster they grow, the sooner they hit the wall https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/chinas-involuted-generation https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/chinas-in... https://blogs.cornell.edu/info2040/2021/09/28/involution-neijuan-in-china-and-game-theory/ https://blogs.cornell.edu/info2040/2021/09/28/involution-nei...

anovikov 2y ago

Doing so will mean turning American economy to the like of European. That is, socialism, generational stagnation and people checking checkboxes rather than doing things. Why not just educate people into investing better instead? It has a side consequence of (purely by chance) making some people multimillionaire heirs simply because their granny lived a very long life and markets were good, thus creating a lot of surplus money to spend or invest. Old people tend to be stingy so that money is unlikely to be spent before their death.

wormlord 2y ago
The US model relies on perpetual growth, when in reality the problem is "do we have enough people to take care of the elderly". The issue is one of physical capital and human capital. The answer today is YES we have enough of both of those things to take care of our elderly, however we direct that human labor and capital towards things that produce more "value". There is very little value in taking care of old people. Unless the government mandates that some proportion of the economy is dedicated to taking care of the elderly and expecting nothing in return, we are forced to rely on ponzi schemes. And yes, this may be "socialism" but who cares? The government already owns all the land and all the dollars in circulation, they just lend them to you. The illusion of freedom is shattered for you by the word "socialism" but make no mistake this country is not some libertarian paradise.
Rhapso 2y ago
> educate people into investing better instead So 401ks were intended to do this in a way. I think it was the greatest theft of a generation. "Lets incentivize and normalize the middle class to give the rich their retirement funds to play with." In general stock investment does nothing but make the distribution of wealth more and more lopsided. For every dollar gained by the poorer the rich gain more. When the rich gain more, they get to leverage the new capital to get even more next time in a positive feedback loop.
troyvit 2y ago
Man I hear that so much on HN. I'd never been to Europe until 2021, and I met so many happy, beautiful, productive people who enjoyed healthy food, great booze, love, and just LIFE compared to the U.S. Here on the Colorado front range it's all scrambling to keep an edge, trying not to look homeless people in the eye, taking as much as you can, working killer hours for (lots of) cash that we then blow on stupid plastic shit .... Sure many of the people I talked with complained about the government stepping on its own toes to try to increase tourism or provide grants for building new things, etc., but I also saw women walking alone in the middle of capital cities at midnight because it was perfectly safe to do so. Granted this is just one small country in Europe but if that's what socialism, generational stagnation, and people checking checkboxes looks like then sign me up. That said ... > Why not just educate people into investing better instead? Yes! This along with critical thinking about social media, lessons on how to fill out your taxes, fostering an interest in local politics over national politics, and maybe America can get its head out of its ass and actually produce happiness instead of just money.
- oceanplexian 2y ago
  As they say, the grass is always greener. I’m lucky to have worked with enough colleagues who have immigrated from Europe to realize that the situation there is far from perfect. For example they are making 30-50% the pay of a software engineer in California or New York, and that’s in a “rich” european country like Germany or France. The chance of owning a house is almost impossible. They don’t have access to open spaces even remotely like Colorado. Obviously what you prefer will be up to you, but the US has a lot more options in terms of the lifestyle you can choose from.
  - anovikov 2y ago
    That. And more generally, there's almost no chance to change your life for the better. Rich people there are those who became rich before this system was put in place (before WWII that is, sometimes in the XIX century or before), and then just pass the wealth down the generations. Or those who immigrated having earned (or stolen) the wealth abroad. For others, there's really no hope of breaking out of endless toil for mediocre wage. And yes, on the flip side, it's really hard to fall through the cracks completely, but that's what it is: to prevent people from losing, we also need to prevent them from winning - you can't have one without the other. And, collectively, they just stagnate. There's no progress at all in any side of life, while America still enjoys relatively quick - even if very unevenly distributed - economic growth.
Apocryphon 2y ago
What are your thoughts on the Chinese economy?
- anovikov 2y ago
  They have none of that shit and thus growing fast. No social guarantees. No pensions. Effectively no unemployment benefits. Labour is a resource and nothing more than that.
  - Apocryphon 2y ago
    The faster they grow, the sooner they hit the wall https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/chinas-involuted-generation https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/chinas-in... https://blogs.cornell.edu/info2040/2021/09/28/involution-neijuan-in-china-and-game-theory/ https://blogs.cornell.edu/info2040/2021/09/28/involution-nei...