6 ms·

> : the launch of a new 2GB configuration of the Raspberry Pi 5, available starting today for $50. That's $10 less than the 4GB configuration and $30 less than

> : the launch of a new 2GB configuration of the Raspberry Pi 5, available starting today for $50. That's $10 less than the 4GB configuration and $30 less than the 8GB version of the board. I'll gladly pay the $30 for 8GB (4x) more ram. Pretty much every time. If it's really a low resource situation, I wouldn't bother with a Pi and would go for an ESP* system instead. Like everyone already does.

tiagod 2y ago
There's a huge difference between an ESP32 and a RPi5 (even w/2GB of ram). If you're using it for some specific appliance that needs a decent CPU, USB, Video output etc, but only requires 2GB of RAM, I don't see why you would pay the extra $30.
- metadat 2y ago
  I just really like ram, fomo, don't want to run out. You're already spending $50 + tax, $80 for 4x more ram is a bargain. I grew up on machines chronically starved, think 16MB for Mac system 5-7, and 32MB for win98 :) (which leaked like a mofo, reboot required every 20 minutes.)
  - tjoff 2y ago
    Over 60% extra... It's only a bargain if you need it. For a general purpose computer I'm with you, but the Pi5 often isn't used as a general purpose computer so if you know the software isn't going to be using it then it is pure waste.
    - alias_neo 2y ago
      You're absolutely right. I'd say for a specific application, I'd guesstimate you probably want it to be using something like 80% of the RAM when it's running full-tilt, maybe you'd want some headroom for upgrades. Pi's aren't a great value for general purpose computing when cube-PCs will get you orders of magnitude more power and functionality for 2-4x the price, and people often neglect to factor in the price of a case, PSU, storage which stack up the cost rapidly. Every generation I grab a couple of the latest model-B and run a few quick desktop tests to see where they're at subjectively (no benchmarks, just boot it up and "use" it) and Pi 5 is still orders of lower than what I expect from a computer. Put them to work in a specific application and their reliability and great ubiquity shine; I have a couple of Pis in 3D printers, one powering a touch-screen dashboard, a couple in my server rack for Hashicorp Vault, Unifi Server, ARM build server, a half a dozen or so in home-made speaker/TTS devices, a couple in retro gaming-handhelds, one in a dedicated WiFi AP for MiTM/testing/traffic-inspection, and one with a NVMe HAT running a file-server for low-power network storage. Each Pi serves a purpose, and I've allocated a device a specific model based on its requirements; a couple of them are probably over-powered just due to having a specific Pi spare, but I try to shuffle them around to be using the weakest/cheapest Pi available that suits the purpose.
      - nottorp 2y ago
        > and their reliability ... don't forget to add more cooling for that reliability
        alias_neo 2y ago
        Yes definitely. In my experience I've only ever had to cool models from the Pi4 upwards. Of course the number of them I'm running is small, so it's anecdotal, but over years since the launch of the first Pi (which I still have), they're all still chugging along, with all but the Pi4s and Pi5s completely un-cooled (no heatsinks or fans).
        nottorp 2y ago
        I'm sort of whining a bit. I'd like it if they still kept a weaker Pi that doesn't require cooling in production. Not the Zeros though, full featured ones.
        fanf2 2y ago
        You can still buy a Raspberry Pi 3. The more recent models can run without cooling; they will throttle if necessary.
        nottorp 2y ago
        Do they still manufacture it? Or is it old stock? Or is the A+ the new Raspberry PI 3? It seems to have a different form factor though. I don't see 3 Bs in stock in my usual places. 4s and 5s are plenty though.
      - Marsymars 2y ago
        > Pi's aren't a great value for general purpose computing when cube-PCs will get you orders of magnitude more power and functionality for 2-4x the price Eh, not orders of magnitude more. An RP5 is like 25% of the speed of an Apple M3.
    - rwalle 2y ago
      I would guess most consumer purchases of pi's are setting in a drawer gathering dust. So less RAM is less of a waste of money. (Don't ask how I know it)
  - smilespray 2y ago
    I remember rebooting my Mac every time I went for coffee. Prevenative maintenance...
  - TeMPOraL 2y ago
    RAM FOMO is a real thing indeed. Switching from Windows to Linux is how I caught it; suddenly, having not enough RAM was no longer a minor annoyance, but a critical problem preventing use of the machine.
    - moooo99 2y ago
      For me the experience was quite different. On windows I was constantly out of RAM for some reason, windows idling was already chewing through 6 GBs and didn’t seem to free a lot when memory pressure increased. On Linux I barely run into RAM issues anymore since everything seems to run more efficiently
    - kalleboo 2y ago
      I've always wondered, has there never been an effort to add to Linux a dynamic swap file like Windows and macOS ("X") have always had?
      - theblazehen 2y ago
        Yes, I've used systemd-swap https://github.com/nefelim4ag/systemd-swap https://github.com/nefelim4ag/systemd-swap
      - vbezhenar 2y ago
        Should be trivial with simple cron script? Just check swap usage once a minute and create/delete /swapfile-N as necessary.
      - dspillett 2y ago
        The problem with expanding page files is that by the time you really need them (they are expanding a lot) you might be past the point of no return where just hitting the power button is your best option. Once you are using a lot of paging, chances are performance has fallen through the floor to the point where doing anything to fix it (killing run-away processes, closing other processes (killing those that won't go willingly)) takes so long that you are fighting a losing battle. This is less of an issue with fast SD drives than it is with spinning rust (or slow SD cards / eMMC with some smaller devices) but still essentially the case. I just have enough swap defined for some small unusual circumstances and assume that if I need more than that things are falling over anyway so OOM taking things our is not going to make it worse (if they continued to thrash I'd have to kill them anyway).
- lmpdev 2y ago
  Is there a decent middle ground that isn’t some obscure STM or PIC chip?
  - spiritplumber 2y ago
    The Parallax Propeller 2. It's pretty easy to code for, has plenty of horsepower, and it's very robust electrically. I use it as standard for most of my autonomous stuff.
  - daemonologist 2y ago
    Probably the Raspberry Pi Zero ($10, and Zero 2W - $15). The latter has 512MB RAM, quad core A53. There might be more powerful microcontrollers as well but as you say they're probably more obscure (and expensive).
  - throwaway81523 2y ago
    Raspberry Pi Pico? Particularly the new Pico 2. Wireless version not out yet though.
  - sameeee 2y ago
    Orange PI Zero 3 is my choice. £30 on Ali express for the 2GB model with case and fan. I got one last week. Only issue is, the distro they promote is a bit dodgy.
- H8crilA 2y ago
  Here's the protocol I use: for any new project first use the 8GB version. Let it settle for a while, then check what do I actually need, and swap the board for a cheaper one. Minimizing the specs makes sense it you have many RPis running a variety of projects. If you just have 1 board that is a catch-all device for your small projects/services then by all means go wild. But then I'd actually recommend an x86 NUC (if GPIO is not needed). You can buy a new or even better a used one very cheaply.
  - hhh 2y ago
    We have 2000 rpis and still choose the 8gb every day. Way easier to deal with.
    - sgu999 2y ago
      Out of curiosity, what are you doing with these?
      - sshine 2y ago
        As someone who has worked with dozens: I worked with high-power EV chargers. Each system had 4 RPi 4s. (Some due to 3rd-party hardware, some powering touch displays). The main system started out with 4GB, but 8GB was more convenient for developing. The systems generated a massive amount of metrics that got buffered in memory. 8GB memory is convenient when your only alternatives are SD-card and EEPROM.
        rwalle 2y ago
        Sounds like this is a use case where none of size, power & cost matters very much, and faster development is desired. It may even prefer "heavier" libraries if it makes development easier. Which is completely different from most consumer devices and many commercial devices. Well, if that's true, have to agree raspberry pi may be better than esp32.
      - hhh 2y ago
        running an electron app (and the x server and more) in a container
- spiritplumber 2y ago
  The Propeller 2 sits nicely between the two. I use it for autopilot things. The only bad thing is that it doesn't have integrated wifi, so it wants an esp8266 or similar to talk to.
- HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
  Time! If someone's paying me to build something and spending that $30 saves me a day, I'm doing it.
  - tiagod 2y ago
    Of course. I meant that once you have your product working, if you see 2GB is more than enough you can save a bunch of money in production without spending much or any extra time. Moving your product to an MCU, even when it would support it well (which is not the case for a lot of RPi uses) will usually be a lengthy endeavor. But it's just HN being HN, I guess.
    - HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
      Like everything else, it depends. Here's an example. A few years ago I was contracted to build a device that would input some data, do real time signal processing, and output the data in a different format. The quickest and probably cheapest way to get it done was to use a $15 analog chip to do the bulk of the processing. I based that board on an Arduino Nano (clone, of course!). A year or two later, much faster microcontrollers like ESP32 had arduino support and were trivial to use. A single ESP32 would probably have replaced most of the other components on my board, reduced inventory required, reduced power consumption and a host of other benefits. But I never bothered because there was no economic pressure to do so. I was selling a $300 device to a single customer who didn't care about the price, and I had better things to do with my time than redesign a board that worked perfectly. TBH, if I wanted to, I could probably have increased the price of the current board by the same amount that redesigning with an ESP32 would have gained me. This is one reason I avoid consumer products like the plague. I'd rather work with people to whom there's no effective difference in cost between $300 hardware and $700 hardware because the benefit to them far exceeds what I'm charging. I guess I'm agreeing with you :-)
notatoad 2y ago
what about if you were buying 100 of them?
- metadat 2y ago
  That is a very different situation, ESP8266 looks highly appealing if you need it in bulk. Optimize the app into a low resource C program and live happily ever after. Look at what all the best volume manufactured custom and smart devices are based on these days.. it's ESP :) Esphome makes life easy.
  - moooo99 2y ago
    I have no clue why people here are comparing a Raspberry Pi with an ESP32, while those products have some tinkering overlap, they are entirely different product categories. Your Raspberry Pi will have some difficulties running from battery for months while your ESP will already have a hard time driving a reasonably high resolution display for HMI
    - michaelt 2y ago
      > I have no clue why people here are comparing a Raspberry Pi with an ESP32 The usual HN discussion of RPi goes something like this: "The RPi 5 has gotten too expensive, these days intel small-form-factor PCs (possible second hand) are a better choice, giving better performance and no messing around with microsd cards" "I need GPIOs, sub-3-watt power consumption, and I don't need the performance of the most expensive RPi model" "If you need GPIOs and low power, why not ESP32?"
    - rwalle 2y ago
      Well, yes, but to lots of people they use it for the same thing. You can find projects people post online that uses raspberry pi to control a basic motor, which is a bad use of raspberry pi and a horrendous waste of resources. But people do that. You understand the difference but not others.
  - pantalaimon 2y ago
    > ESP8266 looks highly appealing if you need it in bulk That chip is ancient, better get a ESP32-C3 or ESP32-C2
moffkalast 2y ago
It's an even worse calculation when you consider that going from 8 GB to 12 GB of LPDDR4X costs only $7 to use the larger chip. If I'm already paying over $100 after customs then I'll also pay another $10 for 50% more memory ffs. The price is already uncompetitive for the hardware so might as well throw in all the bells and whistles, since anyone who's buying these is doing so for the software support ecosystem anyway.
vbezhenar 2y ago
> I'll gladly pay the $30 for 8GB (4x) more ram. Pretty much every time. But why? SBC are not supposed to be used as a general purpose computer. They're supposed to be used for some single task. If this task requires 2 GB RAM, why would you pay more for unused RAM? That makes little sense. Of course if you're building a personal computer, home server or something like that with unspecified tasks, that makes sense.
- matheusmoreira 2y ago
  > SBC are not supposed to be used as a general purpose computer. Why not? We have smartphones with ridiculously powerful specifications. I use Termux for software development. No reason we can't have computers in the same form factor. I'm planning to buy a clockwork pi uconsole specifically because it's a handheld Linux computer with a physical keyboard.
- kelnos 2y ago
  > SBC are not supposed to be used as a general purpose computer. Funny sentiment on a site called "hacker" news. Use them for whatever you like, the more creative, the better.
sspiff 2y ago
For a general purpose home server/lab device that doesn't have a predefined use case and which might run different software over time, I agree the added memory gives you much more flexibility. However, there are plenty of people using Pis in the maker space and embedded world where the device will just run one piece of software for the rest of its life, and often 2GB will be enough. This device is for those types of use cases, and offer substantial cost savings for them.

tiagod 2y ago

There's a huge difference between an ESP32 and a RPi5 (even w/2GB of ram). If you're using it for some specific appliance that needs a decent CPU, USB, Video output etc, but only requires 2GB of RAM, I don't see why you would pay the extra $30.

metadat 2y ago
I just really like ram, fomo, don't want to run out. You're already spending $50 + tax, $80 for 4x more ram is a bargain. I grew up on machines chronically starved, think 16MB for Mac system 5-7, and 32MB for win98 :) (which leaked like a mofo, reboot required every 20 minutes.)
- tjoff 2y ago
  Over 60% extra... It's only a bargain if you need it. For a general purpose computer I'm with you, but the Pi5 often isn't used as a general purpose computer so if you know the software isn't going to be using it then it is pure waste.
  - alias_neo 2y ago
    You're absolutely right. I'd say for a specific application, I'd guesstimate you probably want it to be using something like 80% of the RAM when it's running full-tilt, maybe you'd want some headroom for upgrades. Pi's aren't a great value for general purpose computing when cube-PCs will get you orders of magnitude more power and functionality for 2-4x the price, and people often neglect to factor in the price of a case, PSU, storage which stack up the cost rapidly. Every generation I grab a couple of the latest model-B and run a few quick desktop tests to see where they're at subjectively (no benchmarks, just boot it up and "use" it) and Pi 5 is still orders of lower than what I expect from a computer. Put them to work in a specific application and their reliability and great ubiquity shine; I have a couple of Pis in 3D printers, one powering a touch-screen dashboard, a couple in my server rack for Hashicorp Vault, Unifi Server, ARM build server, a half a dozen or so in home-made speaker/TTS devices, a couple in retro gaming-handhelds, one in a dedicated WiFi AP for MiTM/testing/traffic-inspection, and one with a NVMe HAT running a file-server for low-power network storage. Each Pi serves a purpose, and I've allocated a device a specific model based on its requirements; a couple of them are probably over-powered just due to having a specific Pi spare, but I try to shuffle them around to be using the weakest/cheapest Pi available that suits the purpose.
    - nottorp 2y ago
      > and their reliability ... don't forget to add more cooling for that reliability
      - alias_neo 2y ago
        Yes definitely. In my experience I've only ever had to cool models from the Pi4 upwards. Of course the number of them I'm running is small, so it's anecdotal, but over years since the launch of the first Pi (which I still have), they're all still chugging along, with all but the Pi4s and Pi5s completely un-cooled (no heatsinks or fans).
        nottorp 2y ago
        I'm sort of whining a bit. I'd like it if they still kept a weaker Pi that doesn't require cooling in production. Not the Zeros though, full featured ones.
        fanf2 2y ago
        You can still buy a Raspberry Pi 3. The more recent models can run without cooling; they will throttle if necessary.
        nottorp 2y ago
        Do they still manufacture it? Or is it old stock? Or is the A+ the new Raspberry PI 3? It seems to have a different form factor though. I don't see 3 Bs in stock in my usual places. 4s and 5s are plenty though.
    - Marsymars 2y ago
      > Pi's aren't a great value for general purpose computing when cube-PCs will get you orders of magnitude more power and functionality for 2-4x the price Eh, not orders of magnitude more. An RP5 is like 25% of the speed of an Apple M3.
  - rwalle 2y ago
    I would guess most consumer purchases of pi's are setting in a drawer gathering dust. So less RAM is less of a waste of money. (Don't ask how I know it)
- smilespray 2y ago
  I remember rebooting my Mac every time I went for coffee. Prevenative maintenance...
- TeMPOraL 2y ago
  RAM FOMO is a real thing indeed. Switching from Windows to Linux is how I caught it; suddenly, having not enough RAM was no longer a minor annoyance, but a critical problem preventing use of the machine.
  - moooo99 2y ago
    For me the experience was quite different. On windows I was constantly out of RAM for some reason, windows idling was already chewing through 6 GBs and didn’t seem to free a lot when memory pressure increased. On Linux I barely run into RAM issues anymore since everything seems to run more efficiently
  - kalleboo 2y ago
    I've always wondered, has there never been an effort to add to Linux a dynamic swap file like Windows and macOS ("X") have always had?
    - theblazehen 2y ago
      Yes, I've used systemd-swap https://github.com/nefelim4ag/systemd-swap https://github.com/nefelim4ag/systemd-swap
    - vbezhenar 2y ago
      Should be trivial with simple cron script? Just check swap usage once a minute and create/delete /swapfile-N as necessary.
    - dspillett 2y ago
      The problem with expanding page files is that by the time you really need them (they are expanding a lot) you might be past the point of no return where just hitting the power button is your best option. Once you are using a lot of paging, chances are performance has fallen through the floor to the point where doing anything to fix it (killing run-away processes, closing other processes (killing those that won't go willingly)) takes so long that you are fighting a losing battle. This is less of an issue with fast SD drives than it is with spinning rust (or slow SD cards / eMMC with some smaller devices) but still essentially the case. I just have enough swap defined for some small unusual circumstances and assume that if I need more than that things are falling over anyway so OOM taking things our is not going to make it worse (if they continued to thrash I'd have to kill them anyway).
lmpdev 2y ago
Is there a decent middle ground that isn’t some obscure STM or PIC chip?
- spiritplumber 2y ago
  The Parallax Propeller 2. It's pretty easy to code for, has plenty of horsepower, and it's very robust electrically. I use it as standard for most of my autonomous stuff.
- daemonologist 2y ago
  Probably the Raspberry Pi Zero ($10, and Zero 2W - $15). The latter has 512MB RAM, quad core A53. There might be more powerful microcontrollers as well but as you say they're probably more obscure (and expensive).
- throwaway81523 2y ago
  Raspberry Pi Pico? Particularly the new Pico 2. Wireless version not out yet though.
- sameeee 2y ago
  Orange PI Zero 3 is my choice. £30 on Ali express for the 2GB model with case and fan. I got one last week. Only issue is, the distro they promote is a bit dodgy.
H8crilA 2y ago
Here's the protocol I use: for any new project first use the 8GB version. Let it settle for a while, then check what do I actually need, and swap the board for a cheaper one. Minimizing the specs makes sense it you have many RPis running a variety of projects. If you just have 1 board that is a catch-all device for your small projects/services then by all means go wild. But then I'd actually recommend an x86 NUC (if GPIO is not needed). You can buy a new or even better a used one very cheaply.
- hhh 2y ago
  We have 2000 rpis and still choose the 8gb every day. Way easier to deal with.
  - sgu999 2y ago
    Out of curiosity, what are you doing with these?
    - sshine 2y ago
      As someone who has worked with dozens: I worked with high-power EV chargers. Each system had 4 RPi 4s. (Some due to 3rd-party hardware, some powering touch displays). The main system started out with 4GB, but 8GB was more convenient for developing. The systems generated a massive amount of metrics that got buffered in memory. 8GB memory is convenient when your only alternatives are SD-card and EEPROM.
      - rwalle 2y ago
        Sounds like this is a use case where none of size, power & cost matters very much, and faster development is desired. It may even prefer "heavier" libraries if it makes development easier. Which is completely different from most consumer devices and many commercial devices. Well, if that's true, have to agree raspberry pi may be better than esp32.
    - hhh 2y ago
      running an electron app (and the x server and more) in a container
spiritplumber 2y ago
The Propeller 2 sits nicely between the two. I use it for autopilot things. The only bad thing is that it doesn't have integrated wifi, so it wants an esp8266 or similar to talk to.
HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
Time! If someone's paying me to build something and spending that $30 saves me a day, I'm doing it.
- tiagod 2y ago
  Of course. I meant that once you have your product working, if you see 2GB is more than enough you can save a bunch of money in production without spending much or any extra time. Moving your product to an MCU, even when it would support it well (which is not the case for a lot of RPi uses) will usually be a lengthy endeavor. But it's just HN being HN, I guess.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
    Like everything else, it depends. Here's an example. A few years ago I was contracted to build a device that would input some data, do real time signal processing, and output the data in a different format. The quickest and probably cheapest way to get it done was to use a $15 analog chip to do the bulk of the processing. I based that board on an Arduino Nano (clone, of course!). A year or two later, much faster microcontrollers like ESP32 had arduino support and were trivial to use. A single ESP32 would probably have replaced most of the other components on my board, reduced inventory required, reduced power consumption and a host of other benefits. But I never bothered because there was no economic pressure to do so. I was selling a $300 device to a single customer who didn't care about the price, and I had better things to do with my time than redesign a board that worked perfectly. TBH, if I wanted to, I could probably have increased the price of the current board by the same amount that redesigning with an ESP32 would have gained me. This is one reason I avoid consumer products like the plague. I'd rather work with people to whom there's no effective difference in cost between $300 hardware and $700 hardware because the benefit to them far exceeds what I'm charging. I guess I'm agreeing with you :-)

notatoad 2y ago

what about if you were buying 100 of them?

metadat 2y ago
That is a very different situation, ESP8266 looks highly appealing if you need it in bulk. Optimize the app into a low resource C program and live happily ever after. Look at what all the best volume manufactured custom and smart devices are based on these days.. it's ESP :) Esphome makes life easy.
- moooo99 2y ago
  I have no clue why people here are comparing a Raspberry Pi with an ESP32, while those products have some tinkering overlap, they are entirely different product categories. Your Raspberry Pi will have some difficulties running from battery for months while your ESP will already have a hard time driving a reasonably high resolution display for HMI
  - michaelt 2y ago
    > I have no clue why people here are comparing a Raspberry Pi with an ESP32 The usual HN discussion of RPi goes something like this: "The RPi 5 has gotten too expensive, these days intel small-form-factor PCs (possible second hand) are a better choice, giving better performance and no messing around with microsd cards" "I need GPIOs, sub-3-watt power consumption, and I don't need the performance of the most expensive RPi model" "If you need GPIOs and low power, why not ESP32?"
  - rwalle 2y ago
    Well, yes, but to lots of people they use it for the same thing. You can find projects people post online that uses raspberry pi to control a basic motor, which is a bad use of raspberry pi and a horrendous waste of resources. But people do that. You understand the difference but not others.
- pantalaimon 2y ago
  > ESP8266 looks highly appealing if you need it in bulk That chip is ancient, better get a ESP32-C3 or ESP32-C2

moffkalast 2y ago

It's an even worse calculation when you consider that going from 8 GB to 12 GB of LPDDR4X costs only $7 to use the larger chip. If I'm already paying over $100 after customs then I'll also pay another $10 for 50% more memory ffs. The price is already uncompetitive for the hardware so might as well throw in all the bells and whistles, since anyone who's buying these is doing so for the software support ecosystem anyway.

vbezhenar 2y ago

> I'll gladly pay the $30 for 8GB (4x) more ram. Pretty much every time. But why? SBC are not supposed to be used as a general purpose computer. They're supposed to be used for some single task. If this task requires 2 GB RAM, why would you pay more for unused RAM? That makes little sense. Of course if you're building a personal computer, home server or something like that with unspecified tasks, that makes sense.

matheusmoreira 2y ago
> SBC are not supposed to be used as a general purpose computer. Why not? We have smartphones with ridiculously powerful specifications. I use Termux for software development. No reason we can't have computers in the same form factor. I'm planning to buy a clockwork pi uconsole specifically because it's a handheld Linux computer with a physical keyboard.
kelnos 2y ago
> SBC are not supposed to be used as a general purpose computer. Funny sentiment on a site called "hacker" news. Use them for whatever you like, the more creative, the better.

sspiff 2y ago

For a general purpose home server/lab device that doesn't have a predefined use case and which might run different software over time, I agree the added memory gives you much more flexibility. However, there are plenty of people using Pis in the maker space and embedded world where the device will just run one piece of software for the rest of its life, and often 2GB will be enough. This device is for those types of use cases, and offer substantial cost savings for them.