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Curious, why is Roblox in violation of Apple's App store policies?

• modeless 2y ago
  > Apps should be self-contained in their bundles, and may not read or write data outside the designated container area, nor may they download, install, or execute code which introduces or changes features or functionality of the app, including other apps. Roblox is in clear violation of this clause, downloading and executing entire games written in Lua. Apple does have an exception to this policy for HTML5 games and streaming games but Roblox does not qualify because it is not HTML5 and not streaming. Many people have had their businesses destroyed for far less serious violations of App Store policy. I believe there are also other rules against putting an app store inside your App Store app. Clearly Roblox is an app store for games, with its own currency. Apple has not been reasonable on this point with other companies: they originally didn't even want to allow cloud game streaming apps to play multiple games in a single app. Their ridiculous plan was to require a separate Apple App Store listing for each game that a streaming platform supported, and they only relented under pressure after Microsoft went public with their complaints: https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/11/21433071/microsoft-apple-app-store-rules-xcloud-game-streaming-xbox-game-pass https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/11/21433071/microsoft-apple-... And after that debacle they explicitly added exceptions to their policies for game streaming apps. They have never done so for Roblox-like apps, which are still plainly forbidden under their publicly posted policies.
  • chad1n 2y ago
    You can make the same argument about Minecraft since servers download you texture packs, data packs or skins. I don't think that Apple should stop these apps, that's their game model.
    • modeless 2y ago
      Roblox games are not comparable to texture packs or skins. They are complete games with assets and executable code, or at least the fancy ones are. Maybe data packs are more similar but it seems like Minecraft for iOS does not support them.
      • darknavi 2y ago
        Minecraft Bedrock (iOS and all mobile/console versions) do support assets and executable code as well. They are called "Behavior Packs": https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/minecraft/creator/documents/scriptdevelopertools https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/minecraft/creator/document...
        • modeless 2y ago
          Seems like they use JavaScript and this might qualify for the HTML5/JavaScript exception that Apple has. Also it seems like they are a lot less powerful than Roblox scripts, and there isn't an in-game store allowing you to purchase them without using Apple's in-app purchase flow.
          • darknavi 2y ago
            For transparency I lead the Minecraft Scripting team. You can purchase content that runs behavior packs from the store, but it's all through soft currency purchased with per-platform stores. Link to some of the content: https://www.minecraft.net/en-us/catalog https://www.minecraft.net/en-us/catalog As for the "not as powerful as Roblox", we're working on it :)
            • modeless 2y ago
              Neat! And you can do those purchases inside the iOS app?
              • darknavi 2y ago
                Yup! Soft currency (Minecoins) travel with you with your Microsoft account and can be used on what ever device you sign into (including iOS). You can also purchase more Minecoins in the game its self each platform.
    • kreyenborgi 2y ago
      also https://minecraft.fandom.com/wiki/Tutorials/Redstone_computers https://minecraft.fandom.com/wiki/Tutorials/Redstone_compute... ;-)
      • vintermann 2y ago
        Speaking of hated network effect companies, that's the fandom wiki roach motel.
        • jorams 2y ago
          Here's the same page on the better wiki: https://minecraft.wiki/w/Tutorials/Redstone_computers https://minecraft.wiki/w/Tutorials/Redstone_computers
  • tasoeur 2y ago
    It’s a gray area. If you look at apps like Snapchat, instagram and TikTok, they all have this concept of filters/lens/effect which are effectively <8mb bundles running JavaScript / lua scripts for visual effects and whatnot (see lens studio, meta spark and effect house). The key seemed to be to not use any JIT compilers and make sure it does not change the code of the app itself but mainly just act as a static runtime / engine for the effect. One app effectively violating that policy is WeChat with their mini programs, but they get away with it due to the fact that iOS without WeChat would be doa in China.
    • modeless 2y ago
      It's not gray. Your examples do not violate policy because Apple has an explicit exception to allow stuff like that when specifically running in WebKit's JavaScript engine. That's why they use JavaScript, to qualify for the loophole. But as I said, Roblox does not use JavaScript or WebKit for running games and does not qualify for that exception. There is also an exception for "plug-ins" which seems like it could cover the case of camera filters, but definitely would not stretch to cover an entire embedded app store full of complete games purchased with a third-party currency.
      • tasoeur 2y ago
        Going back to my prior example, selecting an AR Effect/Lens on TikTok/Insta/Snap and is kind of akin to a mini app store if you think about it: https://sh1ftdigital.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/IMG_8904-1024x576.jpg https://sh1ftdigital.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/IMG_8904...
        • modeless 2y ago
          If you think about it, a scrollable list of tiny free camera filters is not that similar to an enormous searchable catalog of complete and individually purchasable games. Apple clearly doesn't think these are the same thing either as demonstrated by their explicit policies allowing the former and their attempt to block cloud streaming apps from providing the latter, later turning into explicit policies specifically allowing it for cloud streaming apps and only cloud streaming apps, not Roblox-like apps.
  • actualwitch 2y ago
    Have you heard about codepush? Apps are routinely ignoring this requirement and apple does literally nothing, as recently discussed on hn: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41146779 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41146779
    • brunoarueira 2y ago
      It's allowed if the app doesn't change the main purpose based on the review process! In the past, I'd worked with a company which makes whitelabel apps for churches and does use codepush to fix bugs and implement small improvements, so through codepush the company can not change the app to be about casino games.
  • teamonkey 2y ago
    Is any Lua run on iOS devices at all? The majority of the Lua code is sent to the server, which then tells the client what to do. There are Lua scripts intended to run on the "client" (such as camera scripts) but I was under the impression (I could be wrong) that even they were converted by a server into instructions sent to the client, not run as a Lua scripts in a local Lua interpreter on your iPad.
    • BlueTemplar 2y ago
      Surely the user interface runs locally ? Or has Roblox been careful to ban interface development in LUA ?
      • teamonkey 2y ago
        My assumption is that the server either directly tells the client what to display or it converts the “client” code to some kind of bytecode that doesn’t require a lua interpreter. Or perhaps the lua code is sanitised by the server such that the lua code run on the client is not the same as submitted by the user. Many App Store games do have an embedded scripting system of some kind, just not one that can run code directly inputted by an end user.
        • Rohansi 2y ago
          Bytecode or not it is still running code inputted by an end user on iOS devices. The whole point of Apple's rules here are to force app functionality and features to be reviewed when submitting an app to the app store. Anybody can go and make complete games ("experiences") in Roblox and they will immediately be available on iOS without being reviewed by Apple. It's a full game engine that lets you write custom code, use custom assets, and replace everything. Take a look at Frontlines (https://www.roblox.com/games/5938036553/FRONTLINES https://www.roblox.com/games/5938036553/FRONTLINES) as an example of a game that looks nothing like Roblox. If you were to release an iOS app and push new features and content to it OTA then you risk being kicked off the store if you get caught because you bypassed their review process and the store page may not be accurately describing the app anymore.
  • a2128 2y ago
    Roblox actually changed their wording in response to Apple's policies at some point. They no longer call them "games", they call them "experiences"