6 ms·

That's amazing, it took them 3 months to kill a scam app, but they proactively shutdown smaller apps that break no rules constantly. I swear someone in Google's

by burnte 2y ago

That's amazing, it took them 3 months to kill a scam app, but they proactively shutdown smaller apps that break no rules constantly. I swear someone in Google's exec team is going out of their way to make Google products suck. They've all been getting worse for the past several years. Search gives bad results, search qualifiers only work in "verbatim" mode, GMail sucks at spam filtering now, Android is becoming a PITA, Chrome is shoving in new bad features while killing old good features, etc. There was even a big thing about Google Voice having some massive change where lots of features were going away, so I pulled GV out of my life expecting it to go away, and literally nothing changed. It's almost like Google is suicidal and these are calls for help.

jeffbee 2y ago
It's almost as if both false positives and false negatives exist!
- NoPicklez 2y ago
  Exactly
- wahnfrieden 2y ago
  Google also financially incentivized to be laxer with revenue generating apps and critical of low revenue noisemakers
- JKCalhoun 2y ago
  Agree. I'm no fan of Google but when you are in the business of enforcing what amount to fuzzy (some would say arbitrary) rules you're going to let some crap slip by, and reject some innocent apps. It's these two tails though that will get the headlines. To be sure, they should be called out for abuses on both sides of the equation, but it's understandable that it's going to happen.
  - ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
    The criticism seems to not be that they make mistakes, but rather that when they do, they don't care about or deal with the fallout. Everybody is fallible, and that's okay, but only if you own up to it and fix it and make the victims of it whole. If you don't do that, you're fallible and an asshole.
malux85 2y ago
Oh thank you for saying this about the spam I thought it was just me! I’ve noticed a huge uptick in spam emails getting through to my mailbox over the last year
- janalsncm 2y ago
  There’s a big uptick in one particular type of spam email for me. These ones have a huge amount of nonsense “words” at the end of it, which appear to be random strings of letters of random length. Their purpose seems to be to trick the spam filters that have no idea how to classify “witwicshmniss” as spam or not spam.
- silisili 2y ago
  I get about 10 fake order confirmations a week. This can't be that hard to detect, right?
  - skinner927 2y ago
    It’s always the order confirmations
  - throwaway2037 2y ago
    Wow, that is scary. Can I assume these are phishing emails? My point: They get you to "confirm" the fake order and harvest some personal information. I worry most about my parents. There is no way, at their advanced age, that they can distinguish between real and phishing emails. The Internet has gone to crap, again. Sigh.
    - silisili 2y ago
      I haven't invested a lot of time in them. They -always- have a PDF attached. It appears to be an invoice but never has my personal details, other than email address. The subject is always either 'Order Confirmation' or 'Payment Confirmation.' They always have a number at the bottom of email or the PDF to call for support/order cancellation. My best guess is that they want people call in rightly claiming they didn't make an order, then the phishing begins? I've pasted one below, sans PDF. This one is a phone, but it seems to often be an antivirus subscription . Notice it always comes from a personal name that doesn't even match the email address, not some fake company. That's why I don't understand why Gmail isn't blocking these! -- From: Mark Kiehn <stevendouglas8689@gmail.com> Subject: Payment Confirmation Need Help? (815) X (570) X (9159) Congrats on getting your new device! We trust you're enjoying your purchase and exploring all its amazing features. Invoice ID: INV//#<8 digit number> Product: OnePlus 10T Ref: #<8 digit number> Purchase Date: AUGUST 15, 2024 Total Amount: $397.24 Return Policy If you're not satisfied with your device, you can get a full refund within 48 hours of purchase. For assistance or to start a return, contact our support team. Need Help? (815) X (570) X (9159)
jadbox 2y ago
I have a lot to be thankful for personally because of google. In my bubble, Gmail gave me a solid free email client since the days my parents had AOL dialup. YouTube has been a literal magical experience for its video delivery service all these years, nothing came close to its reliability. Vimeo? (Please). Let's then talk about the first Android phone the G1 and the other early flagships like Nexus. They set the bar in so many ways (yes, Apple did too). The landscape has changed though, and Google has changed. I've always bought the latest phone direct from Google. I'm waiting on the P9 though. They to show they got what it takes still, like very much improving their spam detection in gmail. They have the capability, I believe. Google needs more than good leadership- they need to try to set the standard.
- jimjimjim 2y ago
  This is true of my experience with Google as well. I know it's fashionable to hate Google but Google's search was better than what was there before (altavista, webcrawler or those godforsaken screen cluttered portals). Gmail was/is vastly better than the alternatives. And even though I've always used Firefox it was Chrome that broke Microsoft's monopoly on web browsers. I suspect that a lot of their policies end up being that way to cope with any % of the whole world's population trying to cheat/scam/beat any system or rule.
- burnte 2y ago
  I don't hate them, but like you I'm getting frustrated. I had to remove a link to my personal website from my personal gmail account because gmail would mark it as spam in everyone else's inboxes, including gmail boxes where gmail knows this email came from within gmail! I tried paying for GSuite but even then they still spammed my emails. Remove that single link, everything goes through. Absurd.
anjel 2y ago
Hubris
crossroadsguy 2y ago
They killed my Play Store account even after I had fulfilled the eligibility of not getting the account killed in time and never refunded the $25 (had no apps yet). I know this was nothing compared to losses others might have faced but they literally took/stole that $25 from me. They never responded to anything after the last email where they said "it is final.. something policy…" and all that. Nothing, no response at all. They had asked me to add a bank account while I was appealing this so they could refund and I could not add a bank account, there was no way, there was no documentation. They did not reply for 17-18 days and that was also denied and they just closed it saying "since I had not added an account in time… final.. no further response.." etc. > It's almost like Google is suicidal and these are calls for help. No no. They are fine. Companies like Google, Apple, Microsoft, Amazon etc could they all this because they know the game is rigged in their favour in this world where everything is "legal" and not "justice" and with their resources they can legally take on many countries put together, let alone individuals. That's why they do what they do and they don't do what they don't do.
- mey 2y ago
  If it was via a credit card, consider doing a charge back. Sounds like you have plenty of evidence that they didn't provide the service they claimed they should have. Even for a small amount it hurts them much more with the CC processor.
  - lenomad 2y ago
    If you plan to do a charge back on Google, better be prepared to lose access to your entire Google account [1] including Gmail. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34016389 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34016389
    - devsda 2y ago
      Don't forget mobile unless you are firmly in Apple camp with iPhone and iPad devices. You can switch to Apple ecosystem but then the overall cost in the end may be more than the chargeback amount. It is a pain to install apps and use an Android phone with play services installed but not logged in.
golergka 2y ago
Why does nobody think that it may be plain corruption? It’s a single app that makes $2m. Imagine how many apps like that there are. Imagine if each gave 20% to certain key managers at Google. We know it happens at governments. Why don’t we think it can happen at corporations?
normie3000 2y ago
> search qualifiers only work in "verbatim" mode There's a verbatim mode?! That sounds incredible!
- burnte 2y ago
  Yeah, it's not as good as google used to be, but at least it won't ignore your quotes and -exclusions. Click Tools and then All Results and click Verbatim.
AnthonyMouse 2y ago
> That's amazing, it took them 3 months to kill a scam app, but they proactively shutdown smaller apps that break no rules constantly. There is a specific reason for this. The scammers are repeat players. They have a thousand accounts, three quarters of them get shut down, they look at the other 250 to see what's different, make 1000 more accounts that look more like the ones that didn't get shut down, now only half of them get shut down and they get even more data on how to avoid getting banned. Meanwhile the ordinary user has only one account, maybe two or three for small businesses and things. If one account gets shut down their life is disrupted and they have no idea why it happened or what to do about it or how to avoid it happening again. Google have to shut down 1000 accounts for this one scammer and if they get 999 of them right and 1 of them wrong, the scammer still has an account and the honest user doesn't. The real problem here is that we're expecting Google to do this instead of law enforcement. Is there a scammer? Arrest them. They can't make 1000 more accounts from prison and then Google don't have to play whack a mole while clobbering tons of innocent people.
- coding123 2y ago
  So if you have 1000 accounts, doesn't that mean you've submitted 1000 apps to the store or something?
  - bryanrasmussen 2y ago
    I guess you make the same app and tweak it slightly 1000 times, since it's a low quality app probably it doesn't matter
- Calavar 2y ago
  > The real problem here is that we're expecting Google to do this instead of law enforcement. Is there a scammer? Arrest them. That would be ideal, but getting 195 countries on the same page on cybercrime just isn't going to happen. As it is we have multiple countries where the government actively sponsors internet scammers.
  - matsz 2y ago
nashashmi 2y ago
I blame Sundae Pichai. I don’t know how. But it has to be him.
- throwaway2037 2y ago
  If you believe what Wiki says, he has been involved in many of the Google products that have shaped our digital lives in the last 20 years: > Pichai joined Google in 2004, where he led the product management and innovation efforts for a suite of Google's client software products, including Google Chrome and ChromeOS, as well as being largely responsible for Google Drive. In addition, he went on to oversee the development of other applications such as Gmail and Google Maps. That is quite a list. I have not accomplished even 1% as much!
  - whatshisface 2y ago
    I've overseen the construction of several highway expansions and overpasses, and shouldered only the accusation of being a drive-by manager.
  - nashashmi 2y ago
    Product guys becoming CEOs is like someone focused on the technicals is pushed to marketing. I bet he is good at both.
    - throwaway2037 2y ago
      This is a interesting point. Do you know if Satya Nadella's career at Microsoft was similar? (Personal note: I feel like he really turned it around. Microsoft is so much less combative that it used to be. Yeah, HN, I know: Not perfect, but much better than the original gang.)
      - nashashmi 2y ago
        Msft was hated before for its closed-ness. Google was loved for its service to the user. Both moved into the direction of marketshare. The end result is what we see today which is a drive for market share with less innovation. Or at least all innovation on the shelves put out for integration.
vednig 2y ago
What would you say about this? > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41281628 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41281628
cbsudux 2y ago
urgh - from google's pov the scam app was making 30-40M in rev and they get a nice 15-30% cut they kill off smaller apps because they make little money for them scam apps need to be proven they're a scam for them to be remvoed.
- lapphi 2y ago
  This sounds like HSBC’s relationship with drug cartels
  - realusername 2y ago
    It's exactly like that, even the top grossing "legal" apps are casino games anyways. There's a reason Google is paying radio ads in the EU to convince everybody that they are helping small businesses, anybody who ran the figures on the mobile store knows that it wouldn't survive scrutiny.
    - nolist_policy 2y ago
      But Google Search does surface a lot of small and local business.
      - fsflover 2y ago
        Compare their search results with this: https://wiby.me https://wiby.me
- UncleMeat 2y ago
  The scam app was having people send crypto to a personal wallet. No actual in app purchases. No cut for the store.
Guzba 2y ago
What's really exciting is that this suit is the type of thing that will only make the situation worse for smaller apps. More and more rules have been working so well for the Play Store I bet doubling them will really help.
realusername 2y ago
> but they proactively shutdown smaller apps that break no rules constantly. They just pulled up another lie on my app that I record some forbidden device id and I just hesitate to shut everything down this time. Building a mobile app isn't worth the effort. The play store and the appstore are better suited to casino games and scams than real apps.
katzinsky 2y ago
This computing model generates profit for Google but doesn't result in a pleasant computing experience. Everyone short of those capable of practically building portable devices from scratch is stuck with it.
- burnte 2y ago
  While this may juice short term revenue, it's a long term plan for failure as you can't both survive AND drive your customers away.
roshankhan28 2y ago
i think with the amount of data that google has on its hand, they should be easily able to pinpoint the location of the scammer and let the law handle the rest. i suppose they must have a law team with them for all these types of issues.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
mppm 2y ago
> I swear someone in Google's exec team is going out of their way to make Google products suck. This may be closer to the truth than many people think. In an analysis from 3 months ago [1,2] it was alleged that Google search sucks so badly not just because of AI and whatnot, but because control of the search division was finally handed to the revenue people in 2019, who promptly rolled back important spam filtering in an effort to drive up searches. Deliberate use of dark patterns to increase "user engagement" is nothing new, of course, but I was still surprised that Google would sink this low. Don't be evil, bwa-ha-ha-ha. [1] https://www.wheresyoured.at/the-men-who-killed-google/ https://www.wheresyoured.at/the-men-who-killed-google/ [2] HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40133976 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40133976

by burnte 2y ago

jeffbee 2y ago

It's almost as if both false positives and false negatives exist!

NoPicklez 2y ago
Exactly
wahnfrieden 2y ago
Google also financially incentivized to be laxer with revenue generating apps and critical of low revenue noisemakers
JKCalhoun 2y ago
Agree. I'm no fan of Google but when you are in the business of enforcing what amount to fuzzy (some would say arbitrary) rules you're going to let some crap slip by, and reject some innocent apps. It's these two tails though that will get the headlines. To be sure, they should be called out for abuses on both sides of the equation, but it's understandable that it's going to happen.
- ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
  The criticism seems to not be that they make mistakes, but rather that when they do, they don't care about or deal with the fallout. Everybody is fallible, and that's okay, but only if you own up to it and fix it and make the victims of it whole. If you don't do that, you're fallible and an asshole.

malux85 2y ago

Oh thank you for saying this about the spam I thought it was just me! I’ve noticed a huge uptick in spam emails getting through to my mailbox over the last year

janalsncm 2y ago
There’s a big uptick in one particular type of spam email for me. These ones have a huge amount of nonsense “words” at the end of it, which appear to be random strings of letters of random length. Their purpose seems to be to trick the spam filters that have no idea how to classify “witwicshmniss” as spam or not spam.
silisili 2y ago
I get about 10 fake order confirmations a week. This can't be that hard to detect, right?
- skinner927 2y ago
  It’s always the order confirmations
- throwaway2037 2y ago
  Wow, that is scary. Can I assume these are phishing emails? My point: They get you to "confirm" the fake order and harvest some personal information. I worry most about my parents. There is no way, at their advanced age, that they can distinguish between real and phishing emails. The Internet has gone to crap, again. Sigh.
  - silisili 2y ago
    I haven't invested a lot of time in them. They -always- have a PDF attached. It appears to be an invoice but never has my personal details, other than email address. The subject is always either 'Order Confirmation' or 'Payment Confirmation.' They always have a number at the bottom of email or the PDF to call for support/order cancellation. My best guess is that they want people call in rightly claiming they didn't make an order, then the phishing begins? I've pasted one below, sans PDF. This one is a phone, but it seems to often be an antivirus subscription . Notice it always comes from a personal name that doesn't even match the email address, not some fake company. That's why I don't understand why Gmail isn't blocking these! -- From: Mark Kiehn <stevendouglas8689@gmail.com> Subject: Payment Confirmation Need Help? (815) X (570) X (9159) Congrats on getting your new device! We trust you're enjoying your purchase and exploring all its amazing features. Invoice ID: INV//#<8 digit number> Product: OnePlus 10T Ref: #<8 digit number> Purchase Date: AUGUST 15, 2024 Total Amount: $397.24 Return Policy If you're not satisfied with your device, you can get a full refund within 48 hours of purchase. For assistance or to start a return, contact our support team. Need Help? (815) X (570) X (9159)

jadbox 2y ago

I have a lot to be thankful for personally because of google. In my bubble, Gmail gave me a solid free email client since the days my parents had AOL dialup. YouTube has been a literal magical experience for its video delivery service all these years, nothing came close to its reliability. Vimeo? (Please). Let's then talk about the first Android phone the G1 and the other early flagships like Nexus. They set the bar in so many ways (yes, Apple did too). The landscape has changed though, and Google has changed. I've always bought the latest phone direct from Google. I'm waiting on the P9 though. They to show they got what it takes still, like very much improving their spam detection in gmail. They have the capability, I believe. Google needs more than good leadership- they need to try to set the standard.

jimjimjim 2y ago
This is true of my experience with Google as well. I know it's fashionable to hate Google but Google's search was better than what was there before (altavista, webcrawler or those godforsaken screen cluttered portals). Gmail was/is vastly better than the alternatives. And even though I've always used Firefox it was Chrome that broke Microsoft's monopoly on web browsers. I suspect that a lot of their policies end up being that way to cope with any % of the whole world's population trying to cheat/scam/beat any system or rule.
burnte 2y ago
I don't hate them, but like you I'm getting frustrated. I had to remove a link to my personal website from my personal gmail account because gmail would mark it as spam in everyone else's inboxes, including gmail boxes where gmail knows this email came from within gmail! I tried paying for GSuite but even then they still spammed my emails. Remove that single link, everything goes through. Absurd.

anjel 2y ago

Hubris

crossroadsguy 2y ago

They killed my Play Store account even after I had fulfilled the eligibility of not getting the account killed in time and never refunded the $25 (had no apps yet). I know this was nothing compared to losses others might have faced but they literally took/stole that $25 from me. They never responded to anything after the last email where they said "it is final.. something policy…" and all that. Nothing, no response at all. They had asked me to add a bank account while I was appealing this so they could refund and I could not add a bank account, there was no way, there was no documentation. They did not reply for 17-18 days and that was also denied and they just closed it saying "since I had not added an account in time… final.. no further response.." etc. > It's almost like Google is suicidal and these are calls for help. No no. They are fine. Companies like Google, Apple, Microsoft, Amazon etc could they all this because they know the game is rigged in their favour in this world where everything is "legal" and not "justice" and with their resources they can legally take on many countries put together, let alone individuals. That's why they do what they do and they don't do what they don't do.

mey 2y ago
If it was via a credit card, consider doing a charge back. Sounds like you have plenty of evidence that they didn't provide the service they claimed they should have. Even for a small amount it hurts them much more with the CC processor.
- lenomad 2y ago
  If you plan to do a charge back on Google, better be prepared to lose access to your entire Google account [1] including Gmail. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34016389 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34016389
  - devsda 2y ago
    Don't forget mobile unless you are firmly in Apple camp with iPhone and iPad devices. You can switch to Apple ecosystem but then the overall cost in the end may be more than the chargeback amount. It is a pain to install apps and use an Android phone with play services installed but not logged in.

golergka 2y ago

Why does nobody think that it may be plain corruption? It’s a single app that makes $2m. Imagine how many apps like that there are. Imagine if each gave 20% to certain key managers at Google. We know it happens at governments. Why don’t we think it can happen at corporations?

normie3000 2y ago

> search qualifiers only work in "verbatim" mode There's a verbatim mode?! That sounds incredible!

burnte 2y ago
Yeah, it's not as good as google used to be, but at least it won't ignore your quotes and -exclusions. Click Tools and then All Results and click Verbatim.

AnthonyMouse 2y ago

> That's amazing, it took them 3 months to kill a scam app, but they proactively shutdown smaller apps that break no rules constantly. There is a specific reason for this. The scammers are repeat players. They have a thousand accounts, three quarters of them get shut down, they look at the other 250 to see what's different, make 1000 more accounts that look more like the ones that didn't get shut down, now only half of them get shut down and they get even more data on how to avoid getting banned. Meanwhile the ordinary user has only one account, maybe two or three for small businesses and things. If one account gets shut down their life is disrupted and they have no idea why it happened or what to do about it or how to avoid it happening again. Google have to shut down 1000 accounts for this one scammer and if they get 999 of them right and 1 of them wrong, the scammer still has an account and the honest user doesn't. The real problem here is that we're expecting Google to do this instead of law enforcement. Is there a scammer? Arrest them. They can't make 1000 more accounts from prison and then Google don't have to play whack a mole while clobbering tons of innocent people.

coding123 2y ago
So if you have 1000 accounts, doesn't that mean you've submitted 1000 apps to the store or something?
- bryanrasmussen 2y ago
  I guess you make the same app and tweak it slightly 1000 times, since it's a low quality app probably it doesn't matter
Calavar 2y ago
> The real problem here is that we're expecting Google to do this instead of law enforcement. Is there a scammer? Arrest them. That would be ideal, but getting 195 countries on the same page on cybercrime just isn't going to happen. As it is we have multiple countries where the government actively sponsors internet scammers.
- matsz 2y ago

nashashmi 2y ago

I blame Sundae Pichai. I don’t know how. But it has to be him.

throwaway2037 2y ago
If you believe what Wiki says, he has been involved in many of the Google products that have shaped our digital lives in the last 20 years: > Pichai joined Google in 2004, where he led the product management and innovation efforts for a suite of Google's client software products, including Google Chrome and ChromeOS, as well as being largely responsible for Google Drive. In addition, he went on to oversee the development of other applications such as Gmail and Google Maps. That is quite a list. I have not accomplished even 1% as much!
- whatshisface 2y ago
  I've overseen the construction of several highway expansions and overpasses, and shouldered only the accusation of being a drive-by manager.
- nashashmi 2y ago
  Product guys becoming CEOs is like someone focused on the technicals is pushed to marketing. I bet he is good at both.
  - throwaway2037 2y ago
    This is a interesting point. Do you know if Satya Nadella's career at Microsoft was similar? (Personal note: I feel like he really turned it around. Microsoft is so much less combative that it used to be. Yeah, HN, I know: Not perfect, but much better than the original gang.)
    - nashashmi 2y ago
      Msft was hated before for its closed-ness. Google was loved for its service to the user. Both moved into the direction of marketshare. The end result is what we see today which is a drive for market share with less innovation. Or at least all innovation on the shelves put out for integration.

vednig 2y ago

What would you say about this? > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41281628 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41281628

cbsudux 2y ago

urgh - from google's pov the scam app was making 30-40M in rev and they get a nice 15-30% cut they kill off smaller apps because they make little money for them scam apps need to be proven they're a scam for them to be remvoed.

lapphi 2y ago
This sounds like HSBC’s relationship with drug cartels
- realusername 2y ago
  It's exactly like that, even the top grossing "legal" apps are casino games anyways. There's a reason Google is paying radio ads in the EU to convince everybody that they are helping small businesses, anybody who ran the figures on the mobile store knows that it wouldn't survive scrutiny.
  - nolist_policy 2y ago
    But Google Search does surface a lot of small and local business.
    - fsflover 2y ago
      Compare their search results with this: https://wiby.me https://wiby.me
UncleMeat 2y ago
The scam app was having people send crypto to a personal wallet. No actual in app purchases. No cut for the store.

Guzba 2y ago

What's really exciting is that this suit is the type of thing that will only make the situation worse for smaller apps. More and more rules have been working so well for the Play Store I bet doubling them will really help.

realusername 2y ago

> but they proactively shutdown smaller apps that break no rules constantly. They just pulled up another lie on my app that I record some forbidden device id and I just hesitate to shut everything down this time. Building a mobile app isn't worth the effort. The play store and the appstore are better suited to casino games and scams than real apps.

katzinsky 2y ago

This computing model generates profit for Google but doesn't result in a pleasant computing experience. Everyone short of those capable of practically building portable devices from scratch is stuck with it.

burnte 2y ago
While this may juice short term revenue, it's a long term plan for failure as you can't both survive AND drive your customers away.

roshankhan28 2y ago

i think with the amount of data that google has on its hand, they should be easily able to pinpoint the location of the scammer and let the law handle the rest. i suppose they must have a law team with them for all these types of issues.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

mppm 2y ago

> I swear someone in Google's exec team is going out of their way to make Google products suck. This may be closer to the truth than many people think. In an analysis from 3 months ago [1,2] it was alleged that Google search sucks so badly not just because of AI and whatnot, but because control of the search division was finally handed to the revenue people in 2019, who promptly rolled back important spam filtering in an effort to drive up searches. Deliberate use of dark patterns to increase "user engagement" is nothing new, of course, but I was still surprised that Google would sink this low. Don't be evil, bwa-ha-ha-ha. [1] https://www.wheresyoured.at/the-men-who-killed-google/ https://www.wheresyoured.at/the-men-who-killed-google/ [2] HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40133976 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40133976