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EFF Presses Federal Circuit to Make Patent Case Filings Public

102 points by hn_acker 2y ago

jimmydddd 2y ago
While I agree that more transparency is typically better for the public at large, I don't see this specific issue as a big deal. Letting companies keep certain things confidential might speed up the settlement process and get issues resolved quicker and with a lower cost, which could be a public benefit. So yeah, more transparency would have benefits, but some downsides too. So good luck with your fight, but for me personally, I don't really care one way or another.
- ok_dad 2y ago
  Why is it a public benefit if companies resolve cases faster saving themselves cash? I’d rather the court records and data be open by default.
  - tourmalinetaco 2y ago
    Because less time in the court is less time that public institutions have to spend on it, which means less money spent by the taxpayer on the case.
    - cma 2y ago
      What's an estimated dollar amount on this, for all patent trials in the US, with court fees paid by the loser excluded?
      - cma 2y ago
        I'm going to throw out a guess of less than 0.01% GDP.
    - ok_dad 2y ago
      I’m not just going to accept giving up on public government data and records because some patent trolls are wasting tax dollars.
    - hn_acker 2y ago
      If exposing a patent troll's identity would make the patent troll file frivolous lawsuits less often then public institutions might save money in the future.
- saagarjha 2y ago
  Why do you think transparency would make things take longer?
- D13Fd 2y ago
  You’re getting downvoted but it’s true. A lot of these suits are patent trolls, and a lack of secrecy mostly hurts the victims, not the aggressors. If you think it’s bad that you got sued by a patent troll, wait until the court makes you reveal the otherwise secret structure of your LLC, or the trade secret inner workings of your product, just because the court deems the fact of public disclosure as not damaging enough to warrant secrecy - even though you did not choose to be here and did nothing wrong. Beyond that, having to carefully justify every redaction massively increases costs. Those costs mostly flow from the victim to the lawyers, and in reality increased costs and risk of disclosure will mostly just result in higher settlement values for the trolls.
  - free_bip 2y ago
    I think a lot of people here would see revealing the "secret structure" of an LLC to be a positive.
Metacelsus 2y ago
Good old Eastern District of Texas... uggh
- 1-6 2y ago
  This is the first time I’m hearing about this part of Texas. What else is wrong with it?
  - boomboomsubban 2y ago
    The district is notorious for patent cases, where they often seem to favor the plaintiff. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_District_Court_for_the_Eastern_District_of_Texas#Patent_litigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_District_Court_f... I don't think anything else is particularly wrong with that part of Texas, other than typical political differences.
    - soraminazuki 2y ago
      Samsung even made an outdoor ice skating rink in front of the court house for that reason. An ice skating rink. Outdoor. In Texas. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bxcc3SM_KA&t=474s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bxcc3SM_KA&t=474s
jmyeet 2y ago
Quick primer for anyone confused about this. Patent cases (as well as many others) are heard in the Federal Court system. The Federal Courts are organized into circuits [1]. In this case, Texas is in the Fifth Circuit. Circuits are divided into Districts. Each District has a pool of District Court judges that hear cases. The Circuit has a whole has an Appellate Court (eg the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals). In large geographical Districts (as is the case in Texas and elsewhere), the Districts can be further divided into Divisions. The District itself organizes its District Court Judges into Divisions. The intent here is that you shouldn't have to drive 5 hours to get to the court that would hear your case. So if you look at the Division Map of Texas, specifically for the Eastern District of Texas [2] you will see a lot of Divisions but the area is relatively low population so each Division might only have 1 or 2 District Court judges in it. Federal District Court judges are nominated by the President and confirmed by the Senate but they're also, by convention, sponsored by a Senator in their home state. This is called the "blue slip" system [3]. So the Fifth Circuit ends up being quite conservative beccause the nominees tend to be those that a Senator from a very conservative state (nearly always a Republican) has to sponsor and generally only a Republican preisdent will nominate them. The opposite happens in the 9th Circuit, which includes California. Cases are typically randomly assigned between all eligible judges. There are limits though like if a judge has already met their case load quota, they may be excluded from the assignment. That means that if you find a judge who is friendly to your cause, you can establish a nominal business in the relevant Division and then file your case. This is called "judge shopping" and is precisely happens in the Eastern District of Texas for patent cases. It's also why a lot of the more controversial political cases that go up to the Supreme Court in recent years have come from the Fifth Circuit: judge shopping in Texas. Judges have an awful lot of power in civil and criminal cases and are almost entirely immune to lawsuits and prosecution for their use of discretion ("judicial immunity"). Judges get to decide scheduling, how much time to allocate to the trial, how many motions are allowed, how long those motions are allowed to me, how much evidence can be presented, scope of testimony, admissible evidence and so on. This can all add up to being a pattern of being very friendly to certain case types or plaintiffs. And the plaintiff essentially gets to pick the venue where to fight the case. [1]: https://www.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/u.s._federal_courts_circuit_map_1.pdf https://www.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/u.s._federal_co... [2]: https://ballotpedia.org/File:Eastern_District_of_Texas.png https://ballotpedia.org/File:Eastern_District_of_Texas.png [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_slip_(U.S._Senate) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_slip_(U.S._Senate)

102 points by hn_acker 2y ago

While I agree that more transparency is typically better for the public at large, I don't see this specific issue as a big deal. Letting companies keep certain things confidential might speed up the settlement process and get issues resolved quicker and with a lower cost, which could be a public benefit. So yeah, more transparency would have benefits, but some downsides too. So good luck with your fight, but for me personally, I don't really care one way or another.

ok_dad 2y ago
Why is it a public benefit if companies resolve cases faster saving themselves cash? I’d rather the court records and data be open by default.
- tourmalinetaco 2y ago
  Because less time in the court is less time that public institutions have to spend on it, which means less money spent by the taxpayer on the case.
  - cma 2y ago
    What's an estimated dollar amount on this, for all patent trials in the US, with court fees paid by the loser excluded?
    - cma 2y ago
      I'm going to throw out a guess of less than 0.01% GDP.
  - ok_dad 2y ago
    I’m not just going to accept giving up on public government data and records because some patent trolls are wasting tax dollars.
  - hn_acker 2y ago
    If exposing a patent troll's identity would make the patent troll file frivolous lawsuits less often then public institutions might save money in the future.
saagarjha 2y ago
Why do you think transparency would make things take longer?
D13Fd 2y ago
You’re getting downvoted but it’s true. A lot of these suits are patent trolls, and a lack of secrecy mostly hurts the victims, not the aggressors. If you think it’s bad that you got sued by a patent troll, wait until the court makes you reveal the otherwise secret structure of your LLC, or the trade secret inner workings of your product, just because the court deems the fact of public disclosure as not damaging enough to warrant secrecy - even though you did not choose to be here and did nothing wrong. Beyond that, having to carefully justify every redaction massively increases costs. Those costs mostly flow from the victim to the lawyers, and in reality increased costs and risk of disclosure will mostly just result in higher settlement values for the trolls.
- free_bip 2y ago
  I think a lot of people here would see revealing the "secret structure" of an LLC to be a positive.

Metacelsus 2y ago

Good old Eastern District of Texas... uggh

1-6 2y ago
This is the first time I’m hearing about this part of Texas. What else is wrong with it?
- boomboomsubban 2y ago
  The district is notorious for patent cases, where they often seem to favor the plaintiff. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_District_Court_for_the_Eastern_District_of_Texas#Patent_litigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_District_Court_f... I don't think anything else is particularly wrong with that part of Texas, other than typical political differences.
  - soraminazuki 2y ago
    Samsung even made an outdoor ice skating rink in front of the court house for that reason. An ice skating rink. Outdoor. In Texas. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bxcc3SM_KA&t=474s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bxcc3SM_KA&t=474s

jmyeet 2y ago

Quick primer for anyone confused about this. Patent cases (as well as many others) are heard in the Federal Court system. The Federal Courts are organized into circuits [1]. In this case, Texas is in the Fifth Circuit. Circuits are divided into Districts. Each District has a pool of District Court judges that hear cases. The Circuit has a whole has an Appellate Court (eg the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals). In large geographical Districts (as is the case in Texas and elsewhere), the Districts can be further divided into Divisions. The District itself organizes its District Court Judges into Divisions. The intent here is that you shouldn't have to drive 5 hours to get to the court that would hear your case. So if you look at the Division Map of Texas, specifically for the Eastern District of Texas [2] you will see a lot of Divisions but the area is relatively low population so each Division might only have 1 or 2 District Court judges in it. Federal District Court judges are nominated by the President and confirmed by the Senate but they're also, by convention, sponsored by a Senator in their home state. This is called the "blue slip" system [3]. So the Fifth Circuit ends up being quite conservative beccause the nominees tend to be those that a Senator from a very conservative state (nearly always a Republican) has to sponsor and generally only a Republican preisdent will nominate them. The opposite happens in the 9th Circuit, which includes California. Cases are typically randomly assigned between all eligible judges. There are limits though like if a judge has already met their case load quota, they may be excluded from the assignment. That means that if you find a judge who is friendly to your cause, you can establish a nominal business in the relevant Division and then file your case. This is called "judge shopping" and is precisely happens in the Eastern District of Texas for patent cases. It's also why a lot of the more controversial political cases that go up to the Supreme Court in recent years have come from the Fifth Circuit: judge shopping in Texas. Judges have an awful lot of power in civil and criminal cases and are almost entirely immune to lawsuits and prosecution for their use of discretion ("judicial immunity"). Judges get to decide scheduling, how much time to allocate to the trial, how many motions are allowed, how long those motions are allowed to me, how much evidence can be presented, scope of testimony, admissible evidence and so on. This can all add up to being a pattern of being very friendly to certain case types or plaintiffs. And the plaintiff essentially gets to pick the venue where to fight the case. [1]: https://www.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/u.s._federal_courts_circuit_map_1.pdf https://www.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/u.s._federal_co... [2]: https://ballotpedia.org/File:Eastern_District_of_Texas.png https://ballotpedia.org/File:Eastern_District_of_Texas.png [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_slip_(U.S._Senate) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_slip_(U.S._Senate)