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> Well, if a job can be done by a machine, it should be done by a machine - after all, if there is one thing common across humanity, it is the desire for progre

> Well, if a job can be done by a machine, it should be done by a machine - after all, if there is one thing common across humanity, it is the desire for progress. Is that really progress though? Honestly, more and more jobs can be done by machines. But what about the fact that human beings need to connect and feel at least that they are contributing somewhat to society? Progress is not synonymous with automation. And it's not universal across humanity. The Amish recognize that not all automation is good and they hold meetings to decide which technologies should be introduced. Many people realize that there is an ideal point of automation -- and complete automation is not ideal.

mschuster91 2y ago
> Is that really progress though? Honestly, more and more jobs can be done by machines. But what about the fact that human beings need to connect and feel at least that they are contributing somewhat to society? Well, if people's basic needs would be taken care of (=UBI financed by taxes on automation, or by just plainly taxing the rich), they could have time left for actually contributing to society - anything from caring for the elderly to making art.
- vouaobrasil 2y ago
  > they could have time left for actually contributing to society - anything from caring for the elderly to making art. That is an assumption that is not obviously true at all. Plenty of people are not creatives and not self-directed enough to do so. But even if they are motivated, can we really be sure that such a soceity would work, because people will know they are not truly needed? To be honest, already, society seems rather meaningless in some ways and I think a lot of people find meaning in their work that they would not if no one really valued them economically. And also, people may make art, but automation now also seems to imply that the world will drown in a sea of AI-generated art that may make actually getting such art to a wide audience almost impossible. To me, it is far from clear than a totally automated society will be any sort of utopia.
- ThrowawayR2 2y ago
  I honestly have no idea why the fantasy persists that people given free time will broadly start contributing to society when there's so much evidence to the contrary like the Asian hikikomori phenomenon and their western equivalents. People will simply vegetate in front of their TV / smartphone.
  - vouaobrasil 2y ago
    It is a fantasy that technophiles tell themselves so they can sleep a little better at night even though they are at the forefront of an unsustainable society.
  - danaris 2y ago
    Because actual scientific studies that have been conducted on such efforts have shown, over and over and over and over again, that it's true. Some people, when given the resources to thrive without having to work, take a bunch of time off in order to heal from long-term burnout. But even most of them will eventually return to doing something productive of some sort.
    - ThrowawayR2 2y ago
      "...actual scientific studies..." eh? Let's set aside that one can find studies that say anything one wants, let's set aside that replication is much less likely in the social sciences, please list the top three studies that you personally read that persuaded you that your position is true. If you do provide them, I will take the time to read them; my extensive time spent in the lower social economic strata of society gives me a lot of data points that say otherwise but I'll give the papers a fair shake. If you pull the "do your own research" rhetorical gambit or just dig up the top hits by Googling, that means you were bluffing about "scientific studies" all along.
CRConrad 2y ago
> Is that really progress though? Honestly, more and more jobs can be done by machines. But what about the fact that human beings need to connect and feel at least that they are contributing somewhat to society? But does "society" have to happen only "at work"?

mschuster91 2y ago

> Is that really progress though? Honestly, more and more jobs can be done by machines. But what about the fact that human beings need to connect and feel at least that they are contributing somewhat to society? Well, if people's basic needs would be taken care of (=UBI financed by taxes on automation, or by just plainly taxing the rich), they could have time left for actually contributing to society - anything from caring for the elderly to making art.

vouaobrasil 2y ago
> they could have time left for actually contributing to society - anything from caring for the elderly to making art. That is an assumption that is not obviously true at all. Plenty of people are not creatives and not self-directed enough to do so. But even if they are motivated, can we really be sure that such a soceity would work, because people will know they are not truly needed? To be honest, already, society seems rather meaningless in some ways and I think a lot of people find meaning in their work that they would not if no one really valued them economically. And also, people may make art, but automation now also seems to imply that the world will drown in a sea of AI-generated art that may make actually getting such art to a wide audience almost impossible. To me, it is far from clear than a totally automated society will be any sort of utopia.
ThrowawayR2 2y ago
I honestly have no idea why the fantasy persists that people given free time will broadly start contributing to society when there's so much evidence to the contrary like the Asian hikikomori phenomenon and their western equivalents. People will simply vegetate in front of their TV / smartphone.
- vouaobrasil 2y ago
  It is a fantasy that technophiles tell themselves so they can sleep a little better at night even though they are at the forefront of an unsustainable society.
- danaris 2y ago
  Because actual scientific studies that have been conducted on such efforts have shown, over and over and over and over again, that it's true. Some people, when given the resources to thrive without having to work, take a bunch of time off in order to heal from long-term burnout. But even most of them will eventually return to doing something productive of some sort.
  - ThrowawayR2 2y ago
    "...actual scientific studies..." eh? Let's set aside that one can find studies that say anything one wants, let's set aside that replication is much less likely in the social sciences, please list the top three studies that you personally read that persuaded you that your position is true. If you do provide them, I will take the time to read them; my extensive time spent in the lower social economic strata of society gives me a lot of data points that say otherwise but I'll give the papers a fair shake. If you pull the "do your own research" rhetorical gambit or just dig up the top hits by Googling, that means you were bluffing about "scientific studies" all along.

CRConrad 2y ago