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> Media platform X said on Saturday it would close its operations in Brazil "effective immediately" due to what it called "censorship orders" from Brazilian jud

> Media platform X said on Saturday it would close its operations in Brazil "effective immediately" due to what it called "censorship orders" from Brazilian judge Alexandre de Moraes. Elon has complied with "censorship orders" from other countries[0][1] so what makes this one so different? [0] https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/05/twitter-musk-censors-turkey-election-erdogan https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/05/twitter-musk-censors... [1] https://theintercept.com/2023/03/28/twitter-modi-india-punjab-amritpal-singh/ https://theintercept.com/2023/03/28/twitter-modi-india-punja...

Hamuko 2y ago
He didn't agree with this one.
mort96 2y ago
Guessing the difference is that Brazil is currently controlled by a left-wing government and these censorship demands have a left-leaning bent to them, whereas India and Turkey have right-leaning governments and the censorship orders were to strengthen the right wing? Musk has been increasingly open about using his ownership of Twitter as simply a tool to champion his own political ideals, and those ideals seem to skew pretty far right.
- kernal 2y ago
  Elon has said he’s more of a centrist. So it’s always amusing to see the far left brand him as far right because he opposes their radical ideology.
  - pohl 2y ago
    "Watch what they do, not what they say" is a useful principle, here. There's no reason to take his attempt to self-label as a centrist at face value, but there's mountains of evidence that he seeks to amplify the right.
    - ilikehurdles 2y ago
      The previous regime of twitter censored accounts that are to the right, so when that's your idea of a normal, any change that allows all sides to share a platform could be interpreted to "amplify the right".
      - dpkirchner 2y ago
        It isn't clear to me that accounts to the right were more or less likely to break platform rules. Has there been any analysis?
        arp242 2y ago
        In 2019 Quillette claimed to have hard data that "Twitter Treats Conservatives More Harshly Than Liberals".[1] Their data includes upstanding examples of Conservatism such as The American Nazi Party. I kid you not. There's a bunch of accounts in their set where you can have a reasonable discussion about where the limits should be, but tons of them are literal actual self-described Nazis. There's an overview at e.g. [2]. So yes, colour me sceptical on these types of claims. [1]: https://quillette.com/2019/02/12/it-isnt-your-imagination-twitter-treats-conservatives-more-harshly-than-liberals/ https://quillette.com/2019/02/12/it-isnt-your-imagination-tw... [2]: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Quillette#Banning_Neo-Nazis_is_oppressing_conservatives.21.E2.84.A2 https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Quillette#Banning_Neo-Nazis_is...
      - acdha 2y ago
        This assertion is commonly made but never backed up with data, because it’s fiction. Elon Musk even gave full access to various people to try to find something to back that up and they found no evidence of anything like the alleged censorship campaign. Even Matt Taibi was reduced to tricks like pointing to the Biden campaign reporting tweets and hoping his readers were credulous enough not to see that those tweets were non-consensual nudity.
  - dingnuts 2y ago
    he's just a reactionary; he doesn't have any coherent principles beyond self interest and reacting to things
  - BadHumans 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - throwawa14223 2y ago
      Given that former President Trump is a center-left politician it makes perfect sense.
  - krapp 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - FeepingCreature 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - krapp 2y ago
        I do not understand in what context your comment is a response to mine. I also don't know who you're quoting. Probably the straw leftist you think you're arguing with?
  - JohnBooty 2y ago
    "North Korea says it's a democracy. So it's always amusing to see the far left brand it as a dictatorship because it opposes their radical ideology."
  - mort96 2y ago
    Sure, and the nazis were socialist
- olalonde 2y ago
  Erdogan is practically a socialist, government spending and inflation have ballooned under him. Pretty much the opposite of what Elon Musk advocates for.
  - candiddevmike 2y ago
    Elon Musk, who's companies take plenty of government spending and incentives? Sounds like a socialist to me.
    - olalonde 2y ago
      Might indeed not be in his self-interest, but yes. He talked about it in his discussion with Trump on X. Here's an article about it: https://www.nbc24.com/news/nation-world/elon-musk-pitches-committee-cut-government-spending-donald-trump-x-conversation-social-media-2024-election-politics-voters-national-debt-taxpayers https://www.nbc24.com/news/nation-world/elon-musk-pitches-co...
    - arandomusername 2y ago
      "take plenty of government spending" is a funny way to say has plenty of contracts with the government to provide services... And yeah, when incentives are available, why wouldnt he take them? It's the same way people who advocate for higher tax don't choose to donate more money to the government.
      - BadHumans 2y ago
        Tesla has received over $2B in subsidies since 09, accepted $750M from New York for a SolarCity plant in Buffalo, SolarCity also received $500M in federal grants. I could keep going but you get the idea. To be clear, I have no problem with him or any company accepting the money but this isn't "contracts with the government to provide services."
    - mensetmanusman 2y ago
      Government has had a 10x ROI with musk, that’s the purpose of govt investment.
- misiti3780 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - tankenmate 2y ago
    The poster your are responding to said nothing about their own stance, only conjecturing about Musk's stance and the current zeitgeist. Ad hominem is the second last refuge of the incompetent; or in other words, argue the point not the person.
- copx 2y ago
  I assure you, that no Western right-winger likes the Islamist Erdogan.
  - mort96 2y ago
    I wish you were right, but you're not: https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-praises-turkish-president-erdogan-in-rnc-panel-with-pastor-andrew-brunson-hostage-held-by-turkey https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-praises-turkish-presiden..., https://edition.cnn.com/2019/11/13/politics/donald-trump-recep-tayyip-erdogan-turkey-impeachment/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2019/11/13/politics/donald-trump-rec..., etc
  - p_j_w 2y ago
    Unless you’re gonna claim Donald Trump to be some kind of centrist, I can think of at least one.
  - worstspotgain 2y ago
    Left and right are not the real dimensions here. It's pro-Putin and against Putin. Russia has long made a mockery of ideologies, and indirectly of those who would be easily manipulated to do its bidding under one pretext or another.
  - dyauspitr 2y ago
    Yeah they do. He fits the idea of the authoritarian which they want to further. They may not agree with what he is doing, but they like the way he’s doing it.
- samarthr1 2y ago
  As for the Indian government, I would argue that it is still largely socialist (high direct and indirect taxes that translate to strong social spending in poorer parts of the society, and rural areas[1]), and is still considerably more to the left than much of the west. I would concede that on social matters the government does lean conservative, and is not as liberal as one would expect, but in many ways, that is an indictment of current society, and a part of life, that I don't see changing in the near term (25 years or so). The social fabric of a nation is intrinsic to it's continued stable existence. Mass upheaval in a short duration is dangerous for the continued improvement of welfare of the people. So, it can be argued that preventing mass change demographics is a part of the duties of the government. [2] [1] See central government schemes like Jal Shakti, LPG subsidy, Urea Subsidy etc [2] This is a subjective opinion, but imo mass immigration is dangerous, and recent examples in Europe do demonstrate the dangers of sudden changes in demographics. At the same time, diversity is important, and so is immigration by _skilled_ professionals, with the eventual transfer of skills (and technology) to native (for whatever value of native) people.
  - mmooss 2y ago
    Modi and the BJP are avowed, proud ethnic nationalists, seeking to preserve and enforce their version of traditional religion.
    - samarthr1 2y ago
      Last I checked, being nationalist is not a bad thing? If your government does not stand up for your country, who else will?
      - mmooss 2y ago
        Two things: First, I said they were 'ethnic nationalists', which is not about a country but about an 'enthnicity', in this case Hindus. Inside their own country, they 'stand up for' Hindus ... Second, that phrase, 'stand up for', misrepresents nationalism in the most serious way. Here's the Oxford English Dictionary's defintion of nationalism: Advocacy of or support for the interests of one's own nation, esp. to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations. Also: advocacy of or support for national independence or self-determination. Whereas patriotism usually refers to a general sentiment, nationalism now usually refers to a specific ideology, esp. one expressed through political activism. In earlier use, however, the two appear to have been more or less interchangeable. Nationalism includes discrmination against others, in Modi's case against Muslims and other non-Hindus. 'We're superior' inevitably leads to rationalizing harming others; it's been responsible for much of the worst of humanity - millions dead, over and over, including in India's post-colonial history. Allied leaders in WWII, including Churchill, though it was a leading cause of that war. We can already see violence and opression against Muslims in India - we can't wait to see if this time will be different. That's why universal human rights is so essential. It says we stand not for ourselves, not for our superiority, but for our equality. It says people in India of every religion, and people elsewhere, have the same rights and are fundamentally equal in their value.
- golemiprague 2y ago
  [dead]
sedatk 2y ago
Also, complied censorship requests can be applied per country in Twitter’s case. So, an account would seem closed in a country but visible to anyone outside. That applies to censored tweets the same way. I wonder what prevents that here.
- jsheard 2y ago
  > Also, complied censorship requests are applied per country in Twitter’s case. Except that time a censorship request made by India was enforced worldwide, which I don't think was ever explained. https://archive.is/BnUhm https://archive.is/BnUhm
  - sedatk 2y ago
    Yes, can’t say Twitter has been principled or consistent about it.
immibis 2y ago
This time he was ordered to censor something he likes a lot. He complies when asked to censor things he doesn't like.
- copx 2y ago
  So you are telling me, Musk is a fan of the Islamist regime in Turkey and its persecution of non-Islamists.. Somehow, I don't believe that. Especially given that X also censors for India's anti-Islamic government.. Seems pretty obvious that ideological sympathies are not the deciding factor here, but the question wether an unwillingness to comply would lead to X being banned in the country in question.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - sillyfluke 2y ago
    It's not about islamism, it's about power. Musk has met Erdogan in person multiple times, and took his son to meet him when he came to the States. How many other heads of state did Musk take his son to meet? Musk's whole schtick is quid pro quo and thin-skinism. He complains about Chinese EVs, then dashes on a jet to fly to China to meet Xi and scores a deal for Tesla -- no more whining about China. He publicly entertains Jewish conspiracy theories, claims he's pro peace in general, then gets on a jet to meet Netanyahu and the next thing you know he's clapping Netanyahu's speech in Congress. His whole transition to his current persona can be traced to when is son announced their own transition and disowned him. His bumbling political outbursts are all self-serving garbage all the way down.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - bboygravity 2y ago
      All speculation. I guess a day without bashing Musk is a day not lived hmm?
olalonde 2y ago
It sounds like Musk didn't like the secrecy and lack of due process around it (not sure how accurate this is, but that's what he says).[0] [0] https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1824839784852013125 https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1824839784852013125
- candiddevmike 2y ago
  [flagged]
- darth_avocado 2y ago
  This is not a moralistic position. Brazil always has been a big market for Twitter and there were always significant resources invested by the company for legal compliance. This included dedicated cross functional teams. These teams no longer exist, since the owner thinks 90% of the people in the company were useless. Now they simply don’t have the ability to stay compliant and therefore run into the risk of being fined. They’re minimizing that risk.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - olalonde 2y ago
    Perhaps but that's just speculation and not supported by evidence.
    - darth_avocado 2y ago
      That’s true, but there are some publicly available facts like Brazil’s content moderation team no longer exists. https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/elon-musk-fired-brazil-twitter-content-moderation-1234657777/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/elon-mus... https://restofworld.org/2022/global-twitter-employees-layoffs/# https://restofworld.org/2022/global-twitter-employees-layoff... And the policy team: https://www.theinformation.com/articles/twitter-has-a-new-wave-of-layoffs-in-public-policy-team https://www.theinformation.com/articles/twitter-has-a-new-wa... We could all pretend that you’d be able to deal with operating in hundreds of countries with a bare bones team, or we could speculate that it’s hard & opens you up to many legal problems.
marcosdumay 2y ago
He complied with other censorship orders like this from the same source in Brazil too. In my impression, the relevant detail is that this one comes with monetary fines, that are expected to increase if he fails to comply again.
handoflixue 2y ago
"Last night, Alexandre de Moraes threatened our legal representative in Brazil with arrest" suggests a pretty clear difference in procedure here (https://x.com/GlobalAffairs/status/1824819053061669244 https://x.com/GlobalAffairs/status/1824819053061669244)

Hamuko 2y ago

He didn't agree with this one.

mort96 2y ago

Guessing the difference is that Brazil is currently controlled by a left-wing government and these censorship demands have a left-leaning bent to them, whereas India and Turkey have right-leaning governments and the censorship orders were to strengthen the right wing? Musk has been increasingly open about using his ownership of Twitter as simply a tool to champion his own political ideals, and those ideals seem to skew pretty far right.

kernal 2y ago
Elon has said he’s more of a centrist. So it’s always amusing to see the far left brand him as far right because he opposes their radical ideology.
- pohl 2y ago
  "Watch what they do, not what they say" is a useful principle, here. There's no reason to take his attempt to self-label as a centrist at face value, but there's mountains of evidence that he seeks to amplify the right.
  - ilikehurdles 2y ago
    The previous regime of twitter censored accounts that are to the right, so when that's your idea of a normal, any change that allows all sides to share a platform could be interpreted to "amplify the right".
    - dpkirchner 2y ago
      It isn't clear to me that accounts to the right were more or less likely to break platform rules. Has there been any analysis?
      - arp242 2y ago
        In 2019 Quillette claimed to have hard data that "Twitter Treats Conservatives More Harshly Than Liberals".[1] Their data includes upstanding examples of Conservatism such as The American Nazi Party. I kid you not. There's a bunch of accounts in their set where you can have a reasonable discussion about where the limits should be, but tons of them are literal actual self-described Nazis. There's an overview at e.g. [2]. So yes, colour me sceptical on these types of claims. [1]: https://quillette.com/2019/02/12/it-isnt-your-imagination-twitter-treats-conservatives-more-harshly-than-liberals/ https://quillette.com/2019/02/12/it-isnt-your-imagination-tw... [2]: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Quillette#Banning_Neo-Nazis_is_oppressing_conservatives.21.E2.84.A2 https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Quillette#Banning_Neo-Nazis_is...
    - acdha 2y ago
      This assertion is commonly made but never backed up with data, because it’s fiction. Elon Musk even gave full access to various people to try to find something to back that up and they found no evidence of anything like the alleged censorship campaign. Even Matt Taibi was reduced to tricks like pointing to the Biden campaign reporting tweets and hoping his readers were credulous enough not to see that those tweets were non-consensual nudity.
- dingnuts 2y ago
  he's just a reactionary; he doesn't have any coherent principles beyond self interest and reacting to things
- BadHumans 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - throwawa14223 2y ago
    Given that former President Trump is a center-left politician it makes perfect sense.
- krapp 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - FeepingCreature 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - krapp 2y ago
      I do not understand in what context your comment is a response to mine. I also don't know who you're quoting. Probably the straw leftist you think you're arguing with?
- JohnBooty 2y ago
  "North Korea says it's a democracy. So it's always amusing to see the far left brand it as a dictatorship because it opposes their radical ideology."
- mort96 2y ago
  Sure, and the nazis were socialist
olalonde 2y ago
Erdogan is practically a socialist, government spending and inflation have ballooned under him. Pretty much the opposite of what Elon Musk advocates for.
- candiddevmike 2y ago
  Elon Musk, who's companies take plenty of government spending and incentives? Sounds like a socialist to me.
  - olalonde 2y ago
    Might indeed not be in his self-interest, but yes. He talked about it in his discussion with Trump on X. Here's an article about it: https://www.nbc24.com/news/nation-world/elon-musk-pitches-committee-cut-government-spending-donald-trump-x-conversation-social-media-2024-election-politics-voters-national-debt-taxpayers https://www.nbc24.com/news/nation-world/elon-musk-pitches-co...
  - arandomusername 2y ago
    "take plenty of government spending" is a funny way to say has plenty of contracts with the government to provide services... And yeah, when incentives are available, why wouldnt he take them? It's the same way people who advocate for higher tax don't choose to donate more money to the government.
    - BadHumans 2y ago
      Tesla has received over $2B in subsidies since 09, accepted $750M from New York for a SolarCity plant in Buffalo, SolarCity also received $500M in federal grants. I could keep going but you get the idea. To be clear, I have no problem with him or any company accepting the money but this isn't "contracts with the government to provide services."
  - mensetmanusman 2y ago
    Government has had a 10x ROI with musk, that’s the purpose of govt investment.
misiti3780 2y ago
[flagged]
- tankenmate 2y ago
  The poster your are responding to said nothing about their own stance, only conjecturing about Musk's stance and the current zeitgeist. Ad hominem is the second last refuge of the incompetent; or in other words, argue the point not the person.
copx 2y ago
I assure you, that no Western right-winger likes the Islamist Erdogan.
- mort96 2y ago
  I wish you were right, but you're not: https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-praises-turkish-president-erdogan-in-rnc-panel-with-pastor-andrew-brunson-hostage-held-by-turkey https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-praises-turkish-presiden..., https://edition.cnn.com/2019/11/13/politics/donald-trump-recep-tayyip-erdogan-turkey-impeachment/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2019/11/13/politics/donald-trump-rec..., etc
- p_j_w 2y ago
  Unless you’re gonna claim Donald Trump to be some kind of centrist, I can think of at least one.
- worstspotgain 2y ago
  Left and right are not the real dimensions here. It's pro-Putin and against Putin. Russia has long made a mockery of ideologies, and indirectly of those who would be easily manipulated to do its bidding under one pretext or another.
- dyauspitr 2y ago
  Yeah they do. He fits the idea of the authoritarian which they want to further. They may not agree with what he is doing, but they like the way he’s doing it.
samarthr1 2y ago
As for the Indian government, I would argue that it is still largely socialist (high direct and indirect taxes that translate to strong social spending in poorer parts of the society, and rural areas[1]), and is still considerably more to the left than much of the west. I would concede that on social matters the government does lean conservative, and is not as liberal as one would expect, but in many ways, that is an indictment of current society, and a part of life, that I don't see changing in the near term (25 years or so). The social fabric of a nation is intrinsic to it's continued stable existence. Mass upheaval in a short duration is dangerous for the continued improvement of welfare of the people. So, it can be argued that preventing mass change demographics is a part of the duties of the government. [2] [1] See central government schemes like Jal Shakti, LPG subsidy, Urea Subsidy etc [2] This is a subjective opinion, but imo mass immigration is dangerous, and recent examples in Europe do demonstrate the dangers of sudden changes in demographics. At the same time, diversity is important, and so is immigration by _skilled_ professionals, with the eventual transfer of skills (and technology) to native (for whatever value of native) people.
- mmooss 2y ago
  Modi and the BJP are avowed, proud ethnic nationalists, seeking to preserve and enforce their version of traditional religion.
  - samarthr1 2y ago
    Last I checked, being nationalist is not a bad thing? If your government does not stand up for your country, who else will?
    - mmooss 2y ago
      Two things: First, I said they were 'ethnic nationalists', which is not about a country but about an 'enthnicity', in this case Hindus. Inside their own country, they 'stand up for' Hindus ... Second, that phrase, 'stand up for', misrepresents nationalism in the most serious way. Here's the Oxford English Dictionary's defintion of nationalism: Advocacy of or support for the interests of one's own nation, esp. to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations. Also: advocacy of or support for national independence or self-determination. Whereas patriotism usually refers to a general sentiment, nationalism now usually refers to a specific ideology, esp. one expressed through political activism. In earlier use, however, the two appear to have been more or less interchangeable. Nationalism includes discrmination against others, in Modi's case against Muslims and other non-Hindus. 'We're superior' inevitably leads to rationalizing harming others; it's been responsible for much of the worst of humanity - millions dead, over and over, including in India's post-colonial history. Allied leaders in WWII, including Churchill, though it was a leading cause of that war. We can already see violence and opression against Muslims in India - we can't wait to see if this time will be different. That's why universal human rights is so essential. It says we stand not for ourselves, not for our superiority, but for our equality. It says people in India of every religion, and people elsewhere, have the same rights and are fundamentally equal in their value.
golemiprague 2y ago
[dead]

sedatk 2y ago

Also, complied censorship requests can be applied per country in Twitter’s case. So, an account would seem closed in a country but visible to anyone outside. That applies to censored tweets the same way. I wonder what prevents that here.

jsheard 2y ago
> Also, complied censorship requests are applied per country in Twitter’s case. Except that time a censorship request made by India was enforced worldwide, which I don't think was ever explained. https://archive.is/BnUhm https://archive.is/BnUhm
- sedatk 2y ago
  Yes, can’t say Twitter has been principled or consistent about it.

immibis 2y ago

This time he was ordered to censor something he likes a lot. He complies when asked to censor things he doesn't like.

copx 2y ago
So you are telling me, Musk is a fan of the Islamist regime in Turkey and its persecution of non-Islamists.. Somehow, I don't believe that. Especially given that X also censors for India's anti-Islamic government.. Seems pretty obvious that ideological sympathies are not the deciding factor here, but the question wether an unwillingness to comply would lead to X being banned in the country in question.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- sillyfluke 2y ago
  It's not about islamism, it's about power. Musk has met Erdogan in person multiple times, and took his son to meet him when he came to the States. How many other heads of state did Musk take his son to meet? Musk's whole schtick is quid pro quo and thin-skinism. He complains about Chinese EVs, then dashes on a jet to fly to China to meet Xi and scores a deal for Tesla -- no more whining about China. He publicly entertains Jewish conspiracy theories, claims he's pro peace in general, then gets on a jet to meet Netanyahu and the next thing you know he's clapping Netanyahu's speech in Congress. His whole transition to his current persona can be traced to when is son announced their own transition and disowned him. His bumbling political outbursts are all self-serving garbage all the way down.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - bboygravity 2y ago
    All speculation. I guess a day without bashing Musk is a day not lived hmm?

olalonde 2y ago

It sounds like Musk didn't like the secrecy and lack of due process around it (not sure how accurate this is, but that's what he says).[0] [0] https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1824839784852013125 https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1824839784852013125

candiddevmike 2y ago
[flagged]
darth_avocado 2y ago
This is not a moralistic position. Brazil always has been a big market for Twitter and there were always significant resources invested by the company for legal compliance. This included dedicated cross functional teams. These teams no longer exist, since the owner thinks 90% of the people in the company were useless. Now they simply don’t have the ability to stay compliant and therefore run into the risk of being fined. They’re minimizing that risk.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- olalonde 2y ago
  Perhaps but that's just speculation and not supported by evidence.
  - darth_avocado 2y ago
    That’s true, but there are some publicly available facts like Brazil’s content moderation team no longer exists. https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/elon-musk-fired-brazil-twitter-content-moderation-1234657777/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/elon-mus... https://restofworld.org/2022/global-twitter-employees-layoffs/# https://restofworld.org/2022/global-twitter-employees-layoff... And the policy team: https://www.theinformation.com/articles/twitter-has-a-new-wave-of-layoffs-in-public-policy-team https://www.theinformation.com/articles/twitter-has-a-new-wa... We could all pretend that you’d be able to deal with operating in hundreds of countries with a bare bones team, or we could speculate that it’s hard & opens you up to many legal problems.

marcosdumay 2y ago

He complied with other censorship orders like this from the same source in Brazil too. In my impression, the relevant detail is that this one comes with monetary fines, that are expected to increase if he fails to comply again.

handoflixue 2y ago

"Last night, Alexandre de Moraes threatened our legal representative in Brazil with arrest" suggests a pretty clear difference in procedure here (https://x.com/GlobalAffairs/status/1824819053061669244 https://x.com/GlobalAffairs/status/1824819053061669244)