33 ms·

I Can Be Just As Capable. Let Me.

212 points by shashashasha 14y ago

sosuke 14y ago
I didn't even realize it was a female author until the quote about the PR person saying girls not usually being into this stuff. A PR person that is saying stuff like "I think I better play it for you" shouldn't be in that business, no matter who was at the keyboard. She said it happened many times, after a while I'd be compelled to say something to shut them up so I could play the darn game.
- calibraxis 14y ago
  One female developer I know absolutely hates when male coworkers rip away the keyboard from her. I would too, though other males don't do that to me.
  - ferringham 14y ago
    Funny how it works only one way though. Ever tried to find a job at a daycare being male?
  - vishaldpatel 14y ago
    Male developers tend to rip keyboards away from other males too though... it takes patience on the part of a human-being to not be in the driver's seat yet still be in control.
    - heretohelp 14y ago
      Yeaaahhhh...it has nothing to do with gender in this case. Anybody who has experienced the agony of pair programming knows what this feels like.
      - jasonwocky 14y ago
        Agreed (except for the agony part...I've been pairing for a long time and I enjoy it). In my experience, the people that "rip" keyboards from other folks' hands do so rather indiscriminately.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - r00fus 14y ago
    Not sure if this is sexism, more like horrible manners. I always request control of someone's keyboard when I need it (and given all the germs - I try to avoid it if I can!) Of course, I am not female - I wonder if other female devs I know have this issue.
carbocation 14y ago
Hell, even if you were a virtually incapable, absolute neophyte, so what? The PR guy should still not be ripping the controls from your hands. These all sound like miserable demos, or perhaps very poorly trained staff.
imgabe 14y ago
Maybe this is a consequence of the same problem in that women are not taught to be as assertive, but why wouldn't you just say "Hey, no thanks, I want to play the game for myself. If you expect me to write an accurate review of your game I need to actually play it."
- Mystitat 14y ago
  The response is irrelevant. The point is that the PR reps made her feel like an outsider in her industry.
  - imgabe 14y ago
    And I wholeheartedly agree that those are lousy PR reps. But what's the takeaway here? The people who are actually reading this article likely overwhelmingly agree with her. If you address your complaint about someone's action, not to the person doing that action, but to a large anonymous audience, how do you expect it to be rectified?
    - Mystitat 14y ago
      I take issue with the specific wording in your comment, "...but why wouldn't you just say..." It makes it sound like discrimination is not a big deal, because if you were just "taught to be assertive," you could handle it. There is nothing she could have done to prevent the discrimination other than being a man. The entire article is set up to emphasize the way that anyone should be able to tell she's a gamer from the way she holds her hands on the keyboard, and yet they still treated her like someone who does not belong in the industry. The point of the article is to increase awareness of discrimination among the "large anonymous audience." It is offensive to suggest that victims of discrimination should just act differently to prevent it.
      - imgabe 14y ago
        So, if we're all aware of discrimination it will go away? Maybe, the PR guy she talked to will see her article and make the connection that it was him she was talking about. Maybe. If she had spoken directly to him about it, we could be certain that he knew his behavior was not appreciated. If he's not hopelessly clueless, he might even modify his behavior in the future. The number of people acting in a discriminatory fashion would then be decreased by one. That is something that could be considered progress. I'm on your side here. I would also like to live in a world where there's no discrimination. I don't think we get there by "raising awareness" among people who are largely already aware of the problem. I honestly don't see how it's offensive to suggest something a person could do to bring about the change that they want to see. Yes, you shouldn't have to. Yes, in a perfect world, nobody would ever encounter a jerk. But we don't live in that world. You have little to no control over how other people act. The only control you have is in how you act. Simply acknowledging that discrimination exists is not going to change anything if you don't confront the people who are doing the discriminating.
Pewpewarrows 14y ago
Besides the blatant sexism that's ripe throughout this woman's interaction with various staff members at E3: there's another underlying problem. You shouldn't have to hold someone's hand through a game demo. And you certainly shouldn't need a PR person there to sell the game to your members of the press. The game should be as inviting and enticing to veterans who have been resting their fingers on WASD since they learned to walk as it is to someone who is just picking up a controller for the very first time. Draw me in, let me lose myself in your entertainment, and don't make me think. A shining example of this is when first-person shooters stopped hiding the "inverse look" option in the deep recesses of a menu, and instead just asked you to "look up" when you first start a new game. Whatever direction you choose (up for up, or down for up (inverse)), the game then immediately flips the option for you behind the scenes. That's the level of UX and approachability that should be applied to every control and game mechanic in your title. A fact sheet shouldn't even be available. Make me fall in love in the first 5 minutes, like a well-crafted movie or book. Games get away with so much because they can become addictive and time-consuming. And they'll still sell by the millions.
- Negitivefrags 14y ago
  This doesn't take into account the realities of an E3 demo. For one, the clever tricks that ease you in to the controls generally occur at the start of the game. It's not just the UI of the game that allow a first time player to be able to understand, it's the design of a level to teach you. This is often not the part of the game that an E3 demo wants to show. The second point is that a lot of the more subtle stuff that hints to new players how to play may not even be in the game yet. These E3 demos are with an incomplete product, but the developers have slaved to create a section of the game that seems polished. However, they know their target audience for the demo are experienced gamers, not members of the general public, so it changes their development priorities accordingly.
- agscala 14y ago
  I've played games that asked me this, but I never realized the connection was being made between toggling inverted y axis for the player. Cool!
- 14y ago
nosse 14y ago
This rant seems somehow familiar. This kind of "girls not accepted in tech" was something "that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity" at first. Now it's just repeating the same stuff, and I don't think it's gratifying anyones curiosity. http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- shashashasha 14y ago
  It's not about curiosity here, and it's posted specifically because it's familiar, not because it is weird or uncommon.
  - nosse 14y ago
    That's completely true. HN is about curiosity however and that's why nothing should be educated to HNers by simple repetition.
Mz 14y ago
I only got about halfway through this, far enough to wonder why she didn't tell him that she had to personally play the game in order to review it and, if that had not gotten him to move the fuck out of her way, then just walk off. No need to be "polite" and "respectful" to a dick.
- SoftwareMaven 14y ago
  That was my thought, too (followed immediately by "but I imagine there is a large gender difference in doing that"; I wonder how much of an outlier you are). It may have also been a subconscious thought in the people treating her so poorly, "If she is a real gamer, she wouldn't let me take the controls." But, male or female, somebody shouldn't have to say "back off" to get some respect.
  - Mz 14y ago
    I both agree and disagree. I sometimes wish there were two words for "respect", one that expresses the idea that you shouldn't piss on someone else, that you should be decent to them just because they happen to be human. The other to express the kind of respect that one earns. I have toyed with the idea of writing a post about that concept. I was thinking along the lines of quoting Riddick -- "There is one speed: My speed. Keep up or get left behind." My experience has been that competent men do not necessarily treat me worse than other men. They sometimes are talking "down" to me because they talk that way to everyone. When you are far more competent than average, it becomes difficult to assume or behave as if others are your equal. I am at times guilty of the same faux pas. In my experience, if you can keep up, some of the most competent men will genuinely respect you. What is tricky is pulling it off in a social situation where other people will interfere or where a man will become uncomfortable with a woman challenging the status quo. Her description sounds like it was fairly one on one, which is part of why I think I would have been inclined to quietly call him on it. I can fairly confidently admit to being a significant statistical outlier for a woman. Even one of the female big wigs at my former job remarked on me sitting up front (edit: at the time she made the remark, I was sitting closer to the front than she was and she was the highest ranking woman in the department -- however, she was sitting next to a very high ranking male) which other people routinely interpret as Type A behavior, somewhat to my bafflement. I do that for reasons like I have terrible eyesight. But I am aware that other women also have issues like terrible eyesight and still do not sit up front. I have speculated that if I come across like an alpha female it is due in part to having a yawning disinterest in pecking order, not because I am trying to be at the top of the heap. Anyway, have an upvote. And have a great day.
taskstrike 14y ago
I could be totally wrong. Perhaps what the author assumes is an assumption of incompetence based on sexism is actually additional attention due to attraction. If I was a PR guy hanging out all day with guys playing games in a booth near me, and a girl showed up, the thought of "offering advice" to her would seem appealing. Just applying simple human logic here.
- jeremyarussell 14y ago
  Human society dictates that in a professional atmosphere, people should be trying their best to maintain their professionalism, not win brownie points with the cute girls.
- mindstab 14y ago
  "offering advice" is different than removing her from play and taking over. If someone bumped you off a game and took over treating you like an invalid how happy would you be. Poor tactic even for flirting. And it's a business conference showing off wares, poor and inappropriate time for flirting too. just no
  - taskstrike 14y ago
    I'm not sure PR guys at a gaming conference are Don Juans. He might be going for this: http://www.masterfile.com/stock-photography/image/400-04779255/The-young-guy-learns-the-girl-to-play-billiards http://www.masterfile.com/stock-photography/image/400-047792... Yes, theoretically they should all act professionally and give reporters equal attention regardless of gender. But I find that in reality human nature dictates behavior more than guidelines.
    - roguecoder 14y ago
      Which is why we need to be aware of human nature and override it with basic decency. If a woman is there to play a game and I take the opportunity to hit on her, I'm failing to do my job (which is definitely not to hit on chicks) and I'm treating her like a sex object instead of a fellow professional. Professional spaces demand professional behavior: it is part of being an employed adult.
goldensaucer 14y ago
I'm finding a lot of the responses to this article disheartening. There's a common trend of "she should've said something," and while many here disapprove of the PR guys' treatment of the writer, they're still quick to defend his innocence or obliviousness. Focusing on how the author could've done better to defend herself against sexism is pretty problematic and indicative of this brand of derailing the conversation: http://www.derailingfordummies.com/education.html http://www.derailingfordummies.com/education.html
- saraid216 14y ago
  It's victim-blaming. The interesting thing about victim-blaming is that it's paradoxical. It both presumes that the victim is vulnerable and that they're superhuman: that they can both be hurt and power through that hurt like a storybook hero without more cost than a few extra words. This is one of the nastier side effects of the self-empowerment movement. By accepting personal responsibility and demanding others do the same, we isolate each other and make it harder to override the Bystander Effect.
  - ta12121 14y ago
    Not everything is always black and white. Of course the PR people should not be sexist. But if a person doesn't take even the slightest, tiniest effort to defend themselves against something that is wrong, they're "going to have a bad time" whether that thing which is wrong is something politically charged like sexism, or simply individual malice. Also, prejudice like this is most likely due to ignorance, and the best antidote to ignorance is education.
    - saraid216 14y ago
      I like how you say "not everything is black and white" and then proceed to give black-and-white prescriptions. From an armchair, it's terribly easy for you to say, "Well, instead of backing down, you should have told him off." Not everyone is, or should be, the strong and assertive, constantly vigilant culture warrior shrugging off the whips and scorns of ignorant simpletons. Most especially, as the Derailing for Dummies link explains, most people have finite energy and even if they are strong and assertive some of the time, they cannot be that way all of the time. A direct quote out of the article: Every time I protested [over "the next few days of E3"], the offender would say — as if it were a proven fact — “Well, girls aren’t usually into this stuff, you know.” Somehow, you and everyone else saying that she should have ripped him a new one missed this sentence. It's a very important sentence, and I'm disappointed she didn't highlight it more clearly. By the time she starts educating, she is no longer doing her job as a member of the press reviewing games. She is doing an entirely different job, which she did not arrive prepared to do, and for which she receives no compensation except the desperate hope that one person might possibly listen. How would you feel, if you were constantly distracted from your job in order to fill in for something for which you have no training, no interest, and no pay?
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
caycep 14y ago
As a reporter, you deal with unsavory people all the time. The writer should use the experience as a way to devise her own methods of creating contacts/breaking the ice at this sort of thing. Or if the game/PR was indeed that bad, write a scathing review. Contacts don't make themselves - cub reporters have to wear out shoe leather walking the beat, talking to the right cops and the right people on the street. Clueless PR people should be the least of their worries.
gavanwoolery 14y ago
#FirstWorldProblems. If you want to fight for something, fight for the rights of women who are really suffering throughout the world, through sex slavery or misogynistic cultures/religions. It really bothers me that there is still a "struggle" for women's "rights" in the US - equal liberties were won long ago. Are there inequalities and assumptions made about each sex? Certainly...but nothing worth fighting for. Use your voice where it matters...i.e. not here, not concerning gaming.
- Miky 14y ago
  Really? You're really saying that people should not care about rampant sexism in the gaming industry just because some people have it worse? I suppose we should stop working to help poor families in the first world because people starving in third world countries have it much worse.
  - gavanwoolery 14y ago
    Actually, that is correct. You should help people in 3rd world countries first. Most of the homeless in America are "voluntarily" homeless, or have drug/mental problems. Even still, as homeless in America, they have it better off than most people in 3rd world countries. The average person in a 3rd world country lives off a few American dollars (equivalent) a day - and that is your average person. Here, a homeless person can probably get that much begging in a day. And calling it "rampant" sexism is ridiculous. We sexualize women, obviously, because that is what sells. There is no shame in sexual attraction (or depictions of it), no more so than the average square jawed, six-pack male protagonists we create. Sexuality is an advantage in this world, not a crutch. Let's stop pretending like its such a bad thing.
    - meric 14y ago
      I assure you there is sexism in developing and undeveloped countries, too.
      - gavanwoolery 14y ago
xiaoma 14y ago
>“Well, OK.” I sensed a disbelief in the guy’s voice. “But do you play shooters?” I remember the silence that filled this space beyond this question. I was horrified that anyone could even ask such a thing. Here I was, sitting with my fingers spread across WASD, admiring a game world — and somehow, for some obtuse reason, being assumed to be someone who didn’t know anything about the world or how to interact with it. “I think I better play it for you,” he said finally, prying my hands away and turning the keyboard towards himself. If it had been me, I'd have said "Yeah" as I continued playing instead of refraining from both talk and play until the silence was uncomfortable and then going home and writing an article about how oppressed I was. The poor guy was very possibly just trying to do his job and be helpful. On the other hand, the article she did write made the front page here and it's unlikely that any article about the game itself, however good, would have gotten this kind of circulation. I guess that's why she's a successful journalist and I'm just a gamer.
Torgo 14y ago
People keep calling this a professional setting. But it's a press expo. "Booth babes" as popularized by seemingly every video game or entertainment expo evolved out of companies hiring attractive women for their expo booth, to flirt with potential customers. This particular convention one year had a company set up a display of a live "schoolgirl slumber party" that devolved into a lesbian makeout session. Flirting is expected. Sex is shoved in your face. whether that is a good thing or not is beside the point that standards of professional conduct at E3 aren't the same as a staid business professional gathering.
seivan 14y ago
Just wanted to clarify (and not to trivialize the issue here) More often than not it's not developers who decide to add the achievements for looking up skirts. It's the business monkeys and other people who have "studied" game design but forgot to do hello world some where along the way. Usually developers who decide the course of a game work their own indie studio. And are smarter then that.
johngalt 14y ago
Some women are put in game journalism roles because they are appealing to their audience for reasons other than their gaming knowledge. PR person misunderstood her silence and made a bad assumption. This misunderstanding could have been easily corrected. Saying, "No thanks I'll drive. What type of damage model do you use?" is plenty to show you mean business. People shouldn't judge books by covers, but they do. Best you can do is give them one good shot at understanding. This will separate the actual jerks from those who just guessed wrong. Most people don't want to offend you, so don't spend your time walking around with silent resentment over something that's done by mistake.
- ekianjo 14y ago
  > for reasons other than their gaming knowledge. Well said. It's fairly obvious when you see some of the women reviewing games online for famous publications/websites : they play by the looks. That Kotaku writer may be an exception. People reason with rules of thumbs, and the rule of thumbs is that women involved in gaming professionally are not all hired because of their skills and knowledge as gamers.
- ceol 14y ago
  It's easy to tell someone to give everyone a shot at understanding when you're not on the receiving end of it all the time. She had this happen multiple times, so she rightly assumed what anyone would: These PR reps assumed she couldn't play their games because she was a woman.
  - EGreg 14y ago
    What about these PR reps, what if all the other girls they say that day weren't really experienced players of shoot-em-up games, how were they supposed to know she was different right away? Doesn't your comment apply equally to say she assumed things?
    - anthonyb 14y ago
      There's a simple rule of thumb: Would she have gotten the same treatment if she were a guy? If not, then calling shenanigans is the right response.
Produce 14y ago
This site's design is annoying. Does it really need to fade in that most commented/most viewed sidebar every time I scroll? Why the hell do I even care about that when I'm trying to read the article? Goddamn marketing monkeys, when will they get a real job?
scotty79 14y ago
Dress like idiot, be ready to be seen as idiot. Pink skirt? Face paint? Guy in a suit with comb-over would be treated with similar condescending stance unless he could prove he actually plays. I know it sucks and I hate it but people profile you by your look.
- ericabiz 14y ago
  As a woman in tech, I am dumbfounded by comments like this one. It is equivalent to saying, "Well, yeah, she was raped, but look at what she was wearing. Maybe if she hadn't been wearing that..." Disgusting. I can assure you the sexism doesn't change when you stop wearing skirts and start wearing pants. I speak from years of experience. And honestly, as a man, you don't have to even think about whether what you choose to wear would suddenly get you treated as if you were a vapid teenager, or a toddler. You do not have to make a choice about what you wear in order to avoid getting a keyboard snatched away from you by a member of the opposite sex who assumes you are stupid because of how you look. If anyone ever wonders why there aren't more women in tech, you don't have to look much further than these comments to understand. I am a proud, strong fighter and I have been a successful tech CEO for years. But even I grow weary of battling these types of comments so often.
  - scotty79 14y ago
    I'd never say such a thing. Same way I'd never say "Well, yeah, he got his ass kicked, but look what he was wearing. He looked like homeless. Maybe if he wore something normal." I agree that justifying doing harm by what the victim wore is disgusting. But if I wear homeless guys clothes to interview at the bank I might not get hired. I don't like it because I know that the things I wear have no impact on my skills as long as they are comfortable, but I won't be surprised by it. People judge people by their clothes. I think that women if anything have easier time with that. Some of their clothes are really ridicules and still they are tolerated. Man wearing skirts or stockings would have trouble even asking what time it is. You want to be perceived as gamer. Look like gamer. Or be ready to override your looks by strong character and/or language. Man value women gamers much more then men gamers but they have to believe that they actually met one. > I am a proud, strong fighter and I have been a successful tech CEO for years. I am honored with your response and sorry that I've upset you.
nnythm 14y ago
I was skimming this article and thought that the premise was that first person shooters were switching to using the up, left, right, and down arrows instead of wasd. I felt the lede + nut graf (was there even a nut graf here?) was misleading--it was completely about the buttons, not about the identity of the gamer, the game industry, nor society in general. I am interested in articles about female gamers and how they deal with the unpleasantness surrounding the gaming industry, but I wish that blog posts were held to a slightly higher standard--I am a fairly fast reader, and had to double back to reread large parts of the article to recalibrate as the article started talking about being directed to games with fuzzy animals and facebook games instead of shooters, when I expected the author to be complaining about the wasd keys opening different menus rather than moving around the character. This seems to be a pretty good argument for paying for better quality journalism. I bought a copy of GQ, not exactly the highest brow magazine in the business, admittedly, and the articles weren't riveting, but it was efficient to read them, because they were written carefully and in the traditional journalistic style, with a lede, nut graf, and transitions. Furthermore, it's a magazine FOR MEN so most of the words were Anglo-Saxon and avoid the errors that Orwell rails against in "Politics and the English Language." I never felt like I was being jerked from one idea to another, and I understood the point of the article if not from the titled or the images associated with it, then at least from the first few paragraphs. TL;DR: May there be truth in advertising, if bloggers can't write a proper lede, we will have to pay for news.
- andrewdupont 14y ago
  You do realize that opinion pieces don't necessarily follow the traditional lede-plus-nut-graf formula, right? And that some pieces aren't meant to be skimmed? > Furthermore, it's a magazine FOR MEN so most of the words were Anglo-Saxon and avoid the errors that Orwell rails against in "Politics and the English Language." I don't even know what you're trying to say here. I mean, I can guess, but it makes me queasy.
  - nnythm 14y ago
    Yes, for example Foucault or Derrida is not meant to be skimmed, and part of the point of reading Hegel is to struggle with it. It doesn't make sense to make the reader struggle with an opinion piece, since you are generally trying to persuade someone of your opinion. Although opinion pieces don't necessarily follow the traditional lede + nut graf format, this one appeared to do so, until the actual content was different from the first few paragraphs. GQ prefers short Anglo-Saxon words because they think it's a style that men prefer to read, and what I am trying to say is that using too many words that were imported from French is generally used to make people sound smart because it was once the language of bureaucracy, but generally makes things harder to read. Consider, "I don't even know what you're trying to say here. I mean, I can guess, but it makes me queasy." This is an extremely clear sentence, and would be pretty similar if translated into Middle English. This is generally the argument that Orwell makes in Politics and the English Language. http://www.resort.com/~prime8/Orwell/patee.html http://www.resort.com/~prime8/Orwell/patee.html
rickmode 14y ago
I wonder if this is a at least partially due to the difference between gamers / geeks and the type of people that do PR. Perhaps the PR "normals" may not know the geek culture that deeply. Not that there isn't sexism in geek culture either. I'm just genuinely curious if the PR types in the game industry are this colorblind.
yason 14y ago
I'm not sure I even got the point, it was a long text and the author seemed to ponder aloud more than underline the root problem. But what I got was that she was overrun by the representatives because she didn't set boundaries and didn't refuse to accept their help. A simple "No thanks" would've gone a long way. There's no point in blaming the representatives: they probably try any angle they can find to approach you unless you decline. Suppose you go to a bookstore and the clerk comes over, asking "Can I help you?" and then you answer "No, thanks. I'm just browsing." They don't know you if you're a good gamer or a newbie, so you just need to tell them yourself.
- saraid216 14y ago
  The difference here is that bookstore clerks are generally well-trained to not ask questions like, "Are you sure you don't want the romance section?"
nsxwolf 14y ago
I don't get these game developer reps. I've been to E3 five times in my lifetime, going back to Atlanta 1998. There were always plenty of women playing shooters.
compay 14y ago
"Let me?" Don't ask for permission. And it's not that you "can be" just as capable. You are just as capable. Nobody needs to "let you" do anything, just do it.

212 points by shashashasha 14y ago

I didn't even realize it was a female author until the quote about the PR person saying girls not usually being into this stuff. A PR person that is saying stuff like "I think I better play it for you" shouldn't be in that business, no matter who was at the keyboard. She said it happened many times, after a while I'd be compelled to say something to shut them up so I could play the darn game.

calibraxis 14y ago
One female developer I know absolutely hates when male coworkers rip away the keyboard from her. I would too, though other males don't do that to me.
- ferringham 14y ago
  Funny how it works only one way though. Ever tried to find a job at a daycare being male?
- vishaldpatel 14y ago
  Male developers tend to rip keyboards away from other males too though... it takes patience on the part of a human-being to not be in the driver's seat yet still be in control.
  - heretohelp 14y ago
    Yeaaahhhh...it has nothing to do with gender in this case. Anybody who has experienced the agony of pair programming knows what this feels like.
    - jasonwocky 14y ago
      Agreed (except for the agony part...I've been pairing for a long time and I enjoy it). In my experience, the people that "rip" keyboards from other folks' hands do so rather indiscriminately.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- r00fus 14y ago
  Not sure if this is sexism, more like horrible manners. I always request control of someone's keyboard when I need it (and given all the germs - I try to avoid it if I can!) Of course, I am not female - I wonder if other female devs I know have this issue.

carbocation 14y ago

Hell, even if you were a virtually incapable, absolute neophyte, so what? The PR guy should still not be ripping the controls from your hands. These all sound like miserable demos, or perhaps very poorly trained staff.

imgabe 14y ago

Maybe this is a consequence of the same problem in that women are not taught to be as assertive, but why wouldn't you just say "Hey, no thanks, I want to play the game for myself. If you expect me to write an accurate review of your game I need to actually play it."

Mystitat 14y ago
The response is irrelevant. The point is that the PR reps made her feel like an outsider in her industry.
- imgabe 14y ago
  And I wholeheartedly agree that those are lousy PR reps. But what's the takeaway here? The people who are actually reading this article likely overwhelmingly agree with her. If you address your complaint about someone's action, not to the person doing that action, but to a large anonymous audience, how do you expect it to be rectified?
  - Mystitat 14y ago
    I take issue with the specific wording in your comment, "...but why wouldn't you just say..." It makes it sound like discrimination is not a big deal, because if you were just "taught to be assertive," you could handle it. There is nothing she could have done to prevent the discrimination other than being a man. The entire article is set up to emphasize the way that anyone should be able to tell she's a gamer from the way she holds her hands on the keyboard, and yet they still treated her like someone who does not belong in the industry. The point of the article is to increase awareness of discrimination among the "large anonymous audience." It is offensive to suggest that victims of discrimination should just act differently to prevent it.
    - imgabe 14y ago
      So, if we're all aware of discrimination it will go away? Maybe, the PR guy she talked to will see her article and make the connection that it was him she was talking about. Maybe. If she had spoken directly to him about it, we could be certain that he knew his behavior was not appreciated. If he's not hopelessly clueless, he might even modify his behavior in the future. The number of people acting in a discriminatory fashion would then be decreased by one. That is something that could be considered progress. I'm on your side here. I would also like to live in a world where there's no discrimination. I don't think we get there by "raising awareness" among people who are largely already aware of the problem. I honestly don't see how it's offensive to suggest something a person could do to bring about the change that they want to see. Yes, you shouldn't have to. Yes, in a perfect world, nobody would ever encounter a jerk. But we don't live in that world. You have little to no control over how other people act. The only control you have is in how you act. Simply acknowledging that discrimination exists is not going to change anything if you don't confront the people who are doing the discriminating.

Pewpewarrows 14y ago

Besides the blatant sexism that's ripe throughout this woman's interaction with various staff members at E3: there's another underlying problem. You shouldn't have to hold someone's hand through a game demo. And you certainly shouldn't need a PR person there to sell the game to your members of the press. The game should be as inviting and enticing to veterans who have been resting their fingers on WASD since they learned to walk as it is to someone who is just picking up a controller for the very first time. Draw me in, let me lose myself in your entertainment, and don't make me think. A shining example of this is when first-person shooters stopped hiding the "inverse look" option in the deep recesses of a menu, and instead just asked you to "look up" when you first start a new game. Whatever direction you choose (up for up, or down for up (inverse)), the game then immediately flips the option for you behind the scenes. That's the level of UX and approachability that should be applied to every control and game mechanic in your title. A fact sheet shouldn't even be available. Make me fall in love in the first 5 minutes, like a well-crafted movie or book. Games get away with so much because they can become addictive and time-consuming. And they'll still sell by the millions.

Negitivefrags 14y ago
This doesn't take into account the realities of an E3 demo. For one, the clever tricks that ease you in to the controls generally occur at the start of the game. It's not just the UI of the game that allow a first time player to be able to understand, it's the design of a level to teach you. This is often not the part of the game that an E3 demo wants to show. The second point is that a lot of the more subtle stuff that hints to new players how to play may not even be in the game yet. These E3 demos are with an incomplete product, but the developers have slaved to create a section of the game that seems polished. However, they know their target audience for the demo are experienced gamers, not members of the general public, so it changes their development priorities accordingly.
agscala 14y ago
I've played games that asked me this, but I never realized the connection was being made between toggling inverted y axis for the player. Cool!
14y ago

nosse 14y ago

This rant seems somehow familiar. This kind of "girls not accepted in tech" was something "that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity" at first. Now it's just repeating the same stuff, and I don't think it's gratifying anyones curiosity. http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

shashashasha 14y ago
It's not about curiosity here, and it's posted specifically because it's familiar, not because it is weird or uncommon.
- nosse 14y ago
  That's completely true. HN is about curiosity however and that's why nothing should be educated to HNers by simple repetition.

Mz 14y ago

I only got about halfway through this, far enough to wonder why she didn't tell him that she had to personally play the game in order to review it and, if that had not gotten him to move the fuck out of her way, then just walk off. No need to be "polite" and "respectful" to a dick.

SoftwareMaven 14y ago
That was my thought, too (followed immediately by "but I imagine there is a large gender difference in doing that"; I wonder how much of an outlier you are). It may have also been a subconscious thought in the people treating her so poorly, "If she is a real gamer, she wouldn't let me take the controls." But, male or female, somebody shouldn't have to say "back off" to get some respect.
- Mz 14y ago
  I both agree and disagree. I sometimes wish there were two words for "respect", one that expresses the idea that you shouldn't piss on someone else, that you should be decent to them just because they happen to be human. The other to express the kind of respect that one earns. I have toyed with the idea of writing a post about that concept. I was thinking along the lines of quoting Riddick -- "There is one speed: My speed. Keep up or get left behind." My experience has been that competent men do not necessarily treat me worse than other men. They sometimes are talking "down" to me because they talk that way to everyone. When you are far more competent than average, it becomes difficult to assume or behave as if others are your equal. I am at times guilty of the same faux pas. In my experience, if you can keep up, some of the most competent men will genuinely respect you. What is tricky is pulling it off in a social situation where other people will interfere or where a man will become uncomfortable with a woman challenging the status quo. Her description sounds like it was fairly one on one, which is part of why I think I would have been inclined to quietly call him on it. I can fairly confidently admit to being a significant statistical outlier for a woman. Even one of the female big wigs at my former job remarked on me sitting up front (edit: at the time she made the remark, I was sitting closer to the front than she was and she was the highest ranking woman in the department -- however, she was sitting next to a very high ranking male) which other people routinely interpret as Type A behavior, somewhat to my bafflement. I do that for reasons like I have terrible eyesight. But I am aware that other women also have issues like terrible eyesight and still do not sit up front. I have speculated that if I come across like an alpha female it is due in part to having a yawning disinterest in pecking order, not because I am trying to be at the top of the heap. Anyway, have an upvote. And have a great day.

taskstrike 14y ago

I could be totally wrong. Perhaps what the author assumes is an assumption of incompetence based on sexism is actually additional attention due to attraction. If I was a PR guy hanging out all day with guys playing games in a booth near me, and a girl showed up, the thought of "offering advice" to her would seem appealing. Just applying simple human logic here.

jeremyarussell 14y ago
Human society dictates that in a professional atmosphere, people should be trying their best to maintain their professionalism, not win brownie points with the cute girls.
mindstab 14y ago
"offering advice" is different than removing her from play and taking over. If someone bumped you off a game and took over treating you like an invalid how happy would you be. Poor tactic even for flirting. And it's a business conference showing off wares, poor and inappropriate time for flirting too. just no
- taskstrike 14y ago
  I'm not sure PR guys at a gaming conference are Don Juans. He might be going for this: http://www.masterfile.com/stock-photography/image/400-04779255/The-young-guy-learns-the-girl-to-play-billiards http://www.masterfile.com/stock-photography/image/400-047792... Yes, theoretically they should all act professionally and give reporters equal attention regardless of gender. But I find that in reality human nature dictates behavior more than guidelines.
  - roguecoder 14y ago
    Which is why we need to be aware of human nature and override it with basic decency. If a woman is there to play a game and I take the opportunity to hit on her, I'm failing to do my job (which is definitely not to hit on chicks) and I'm treating her like a sex object instead of a fellow professional. Professional spaces demand professional behavior: it is part of being an employed adult.

goldensaucer 14y ago

I'm finding a lot of the responses to this article disheartening. There's a common trend of "she should've said something," and while many here disapprove of the PR guys' treatment of the writer, they're still quick to defend his innocence or obliviousness. Focusing on how the author could've done better to defend herself against sexism is pretty problematic and indicative of this brand of derailing the conversation: http://www.derailingfordummies.com/education.html http://www.derailingfordummies.com/education.html

saraid216 14y ago
It's victim-blaming. The interesting thing about victim-blaming is that it's paradoxical. It both presumes that the victim is vulnerable and that they're superhuman: that they can both be hurt and power through that hurt like a storybook hero without more cost than a few extra words. This is one of the nastier side effects of the self-empowerment movement. By accepting personal responsibility and demanding others do the same, we isolate each other and make it harder to override the Bystander Effect.
- ta12121 14y ago
  Not everything is always black and white. Of course the PR people should not be sexist. But if a person doesn't take even the slightest, tiniest effort to defend themselves against something that is wrong, they're "going to have a bad time" whether that thing which is wrong is something politically charged like sexism, or simply individual malice. Also, prejudice like this is most likely due to ignorance, and the best antidote to ignorance is education.
  - saraid216 14y ago
    I like how you say "not everything is black and white" and then proceed to give black-and-white prescriptions. From an armchair, it's terribly easy for you to say, "Well, instead of backing down, you should have told him off." Not everyone is, or should be, the strong and assertive, constantly vigilant culture warrior shrugging off the whips and scorns of ignorant simpletons. Most especially, as the Derailing for Dummies link explains, most people have finite energy and even if they are strong and assertive some of the time, they cannot be that way all of the time. A direct quote out of the article: Every time I protested [over "the next few days of E3"], the offender would say — as if it were a proven fact — “Well, girls aren’t usually into this stuff, you know.” Somehow, you and everyone else saying that she should have ripped him a new one missed this sentence. It's a very important sentence, and I'm disappointed she didn't highlight it more clearly. By the time she starts educating, she is no longer doing her job as a member of the press reviewing games. She is doing an entirely different job, which she did not arrive prepared to do, and for which she receives no compensation except the desperate hope that one person might possibly listen. How would you feel, if you were constantly distracted from your job in order to fill in for something for which you have no training, no interest, and no pay?

deleted 14y ago

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caycep 14y ago

As a reporter, you deal with unsavory people all the time. The writer should use the experience as a way to devise her own methods of creating contacts/breaking the ice at this sort of thing. Or if the game/PR was indeed that bad, write a scathing review. Contacts don't make themselves - cub reporters have to wear out shoe leather walking the beat, talking to the right cops and the right people on the street. Clueless PR people should be the least of their worries.

gavanwoolery 14y ago

#FirstWorldProblems. If you want to fight for something, fight for the rights of women who are really suffering throughout the world, through sex slavery or misogynistic cultures/religions. It really bothers me that there is still a "struggle" for women's "rights" in the US - equal liberties were won long ago. Are there inequalities and assumptions made about each sex? Certainly...but nothing worth fighting for. Use your voice where it matters...i.e. not here, not concerning gaming.

Miky 14y ago
Really? You're really saying that people should not care about rampant sexism in the gaming industry just because some people have it worse? I suppose we should stop working to help poor families in the first world because people starving in third world countries have it much worse.
- gavanwoolery 14y ago
  Actually, that is correct. You should help people in 3rd world countries first. Most of the homeless in America are "voluntarily" homeless, or have drug/mental problems. Even still, as homeless in America, they have it better off than most people in 3rd world countries. The average person in a 3rd world country lives off a few American dollars (equivalent) a day - and that is your average person. Here, a homeless person can probably get that much begging in a day. And calling it "rampant" sexism is ridiculous. We sexualize women, obviously, because that is what sells. There is no shame in sexual attraction (or depictions of it), no more so than the average square jawed, six-pack male protagonists we create. Sexuality is an advantage in this world, not a crutch. Let's stop pretending like its such a bad thing.
  - meric 14y ago
    I assure you there is sexism in developing and undeveloped countries, too.
    - gavanwoolery 14y ago

xiaoma 14y ago

>“Well, OK.” I sensed a disbelief in the guy’s voice. “But do you play shooters?” I remember the silence that filled this space beyond this question. I was horrified that anyone could even ask such a thing. Here I was, sitting with my fingers spread across WASD, admiring a game world — and somehow, for some obtuse reason, being assumed to be someone who didn’t know anything about the world or how to interact with it. “I think I better play it for you,” he said finally, prying my hands away and turning the keyboard towards himself. If it had been me, I'd have said "Yeah" as I continued playing instead of refraining from both talk and play until the silence was uncomfortable and then going home and writing an article about how oppressed I was. The poor guy was very possibly just trying to do his job and be helpful. On the other hand, the article she did write made the front page here and it's unlikely that any article about the game itself, however good, would have gotten this kind of circulation. I guess that's why she's a successful journalist and I'm just a gamer.

Torgo 14y ago

People keep calling this a professional setting. But it's a press expo. "Booth babes" as popularized by seemingly every video game or entertainment expo evolved out of companies hiring attractive women for their expo booth, to flirt with potential customers. This particular convention one year had a company set up a display of a live "schoolgirl slumber party" that devolved into a lesbian makeout session. Flirting is expected. Sex is shoved in your face. whether that is a good thing or not is beside the point that standards of professional conduct at E3 aren't the same as a staid business professional gathering.

seivan 14y ago

Just wanted to clarify (and not to trivialize the issue here) More often than not it's not developers who decide to add the achievements for looking up skirts. It's the business monkeys and other people who have "studied" game design but forgot to do hello world some where along the way. Usually developers who decide the course of a game work their own indie studio. And are smarter then that.

johngalt 14y ago

Some women are put in game journalism roles because they are appealing to their audience for reasons other than their gaming knowledge. PR person misunderstood her silence and made a bad assumption. This misunderstanding could have been easily corrected. Saying, "No thanks I'll drive. What type of damage model do you use?" is plenty to show you mean business. People shouldn't judge books by covers, but they do. Best you can do is give them one good shot at understanding. This will separate the actual jerks from those who just guessed wrong. Most people don't want to offend you, so don't spend your time walking around with silent resentment over something that's done by mistake.

ekianjo 14y ago
> for reasons other than their gaming knowledge. Well said. It's fairly obvious when you see some of the women reviewing games online for famous publications/websites : they play by the looks. That Kotaku writer may be an exception. People reason with rules of thumbs, and the rule of thumbs is that women involved in gaming professionally are not all hired because of their skills and knowledge as gamers.
ceol 14y ago
It's easy to tell someone to give everyone a shot at understanding when you're not on the receiving end of it all the time. She had this happen multiple times, so she rightly assumed what anyone would: These PR reps assumed she couldn't play their games because she was a woman.
- EGreg 14y ago
  What about these PR reps, what if all the other girls they say that day weren't really experienced players of shoot-em-up games, how were they supposed to know she was different right away? Doesn't your comment apply equally to say she assumed things?
  - anthonyb 14y ago
    There's a simple rule of thumb: Would she have gotten the same treatment if she were a guy? If not, then calling shenanigans is the right response.

Produce 14y ago

This site's design is annoying. Does it really need to fade in that most commented/most viewed sidebar every time I scroll? Why the hell do I even care about that when I'm trying to read the article? Goddamn marketing monkeys, when will they get a real job?

scotty79 14y ago

Dress like idiot, be ready to be seen as idiot. Pink skirt? Face paint? Guy in a suit with comb-over would be treated with similar condescending stance unless he could prove he actually plays. I know it sucks and I hate it but people profile you by your look.

ericabiz 14y ago
As a woman in tech, I am dumbfounded by comments like this one. It is equivalent to saying, "Well, yeah, she was raped, but look at what she was wearing. Maybe if she hadn't been wearing that..." Disgusting. I can assure you the sexism doesn't change when you stop wearing skirts and start wearing pants. I speak from years of experience. And honestly, as a man, you don't have to even think about whether what you choose to wear would suddenly get you treated as if you were a vapid teenager, or a toddler. You do not have to make a choice about what you wear in order to avoid getting a keyboard snatched away from you by a member of the opposite sex who assumes you are stupid because of how you look. If anyone ever wonders why there aren't more women in tech, you don't have to look much further than these comments to understand. I am a proud, strong fighter and I have been a successful tech CEO for years. But even I grow weary of battling these types of comments so often.
- scotty79 14y ago
  I'd never say such a thing. Same way I'd never say "Well, yeah, he got his ass kicked, but look what he was wearing. He looked like homeless. Maybe if he wore something normal." I agree that justifying doing harm by what the victim wore is disgusting. But if I wear homeless guys clothes to interview at the bank I might not get hired. I don't like it because I know that the things I wear have no impact on my skills as long as they are comfortable, but I won't be surprised by it. People judge people by their clothes. I think that women if anything have easier time with that. Some of their clothes are really ridicules and still they are tolerated. Man wearing skirts or stockings would have trouble even asking what time it is. You want to be perceived as gamer. Look like gamer. Or be ready to override your looks by strong character and/or language. Man value women gamers much more then men gamers but they have to believe that they actually met one. > I am a proud, strong fighter and I have been a successful tech CEO for years. I am honored with your response and sorry that I've upset you.

nnythm 14y ago

I was skimming this article and thought that the premise was that first person shooters were switching to using the up, left, right, and down arrows instead of wasd. I felt the lede + nut graf (was there even a nut graf here?) was misleading--it was completely about the buttons, not about the identity of the gamer, the game industry, nor society in general. I am interested in articles about female gamers and how they deal with the unpleasantness surrounding the gaming industry, but I wish that blog posts were held to a slightly higher standard--I am a fairly fast reader, and had to double back to reread large parts of the article to recalibrate as the article started talking about being directed to games with fuzzy animals and facebook games instead of shooters, when I expected the author to be complaining about the wasd keys opening different menus rather than moving around the character. This seems to be a pretty good argument for paying for better quality journalism. I bought a copy of GQ, not exactly the highest brow magazine in the business, admittedly, and the articles weren't riveting, but it was efficient to read them, because they were written carefully and in the traditional journalistic style, with a lede, nut graf, and transitions. Furthermore, it's a magazine FOR MEN so most of the words were Anglo-Saxon and avoid the errors that Orwell rails against in "Politics and the English Language." I never felt like I was being jerked from one idea to another, and I understood the point of the article if not from the titled or the images associated with it, then at least from the first few paragraphs. TL;DR: May there be truth in advertising, if bloggers can't write a proper lede, we will have to pay for news.

andrewdupont 14y ago
You do realize that opinion pieces don't necessarily follow the traditional lede-plus-nut-graf formula, right? And that some pieces aren't meant to be skimmed? > Furthermore, it's a magazine FOR MEN so most of the words were Anglo-Saxon and avoid the errors that Orwell rails against in "Politics and the English Language." I don't even know what you're trying to say here. I mean, I can guess, but it makes me queasy.
- nnythm 14y ago
  Yes, for example Foucault or Derrida is not meant to be skimmed, and part of the point of reading Hegel is to struggle with it. It doesn't make sense to make the reader struggle with an opinion piece, since you are generally trying to persuade someone of your opinion. Although opinion pieces don't necessarily follow the traditional lede + nut graf format, this one appeared to do so, until the actual content was different from the first few paragraphs. GQ prefers short Anglo-Saxon words because they think it's a style that men prefer to read, and what I am trying to say is that using too many words that were imported from French is generally used to make people sound smart because it was once the language of bureaucracy, but generally makes things harder to read. Consider, "I don't even know what you're trying to say here. I mean, I can guess, but it makes me queasy." This is an extremely clear sentence, and would be pretty similar if translated into Middle English. This is generally the argument that Orwell makes in Politics and the English Language. http://www.resort.com/~prime8/Orwell/patee.html http://www.resort.com/~prime8/Orwell/patee.html

rickmode 14y ago

I wonder if this is a at least partially due to the difference between gamers / geeks and the type of people that do PR. Perhaps the PR "normals" may not know the geek culture that deeply. Not that there isn't sexism in geek culture either. I'm just genuinely curious if the PR types in the game industry are this colorblind.

yason 14y ago

I'm not sure I even got the point, it was a long text and the author seemed to ponder aloud more than underline the root problem. But what I got was that she was overrun by the representatives because she didn't set boundaries and didn't refuse to accept their help. A simple "No thanks" would've gone a long way. There's no point in blaming the representatives: they probably try any angle they can find to approach you unless you decline. Suppose you go to a bookstore and the clerk comes over, asking "Can I help you?" and then you answer "No, thanks. I'm just browsing." They don't know you if you're a good gamer or a newbie, so you just need to tell them yourself.

saraid216 14y ago
The difference here is that bookstore clerks are generally well-trained to not ask questions like, "Are you sure you don't want the romance section?"

nsxwolf 14y ago

I don't get these game developer reps. I've been to E3 five times in my lifetime, going back to Atlanta 1998. There were always plenty of women playing shooters.

compay 14y ago

"Let me?" Don't ask for permission. And it's not that you "can be" just as capable. You are just as capable. Nobody needs to "let you" do anything, just do it.