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> I always ask what their salary expectations are... My reply is pretty much always "What's your budget?". If they tell me the budget, I say the top of what th

> I always ask what their salary expectations are... My reply is pretty much always "What's your budget?". If they tell me the budget, I say the top of what they said or sometimes a bit above it (because it's pretty much a guarantee that they're lying about the real budget), if they don't or try weasel out of it, I tell them I'm not comfortable answering without knowing what I should realistically be looking at (and they get negative points from my POV, because why be sneaky with this kind of info?) It's a shitty question born out of the company trying to screw candidates if they say the wrong number unknowingly. Too high of an expectation? That's a negative mark. Too low? Great, we can fuck them over by underpaying them 20% below what we would've if we'd just posted the salary. Same with all the other similar ones. Where am I in the process with others? None of your business, I just say I'm not interviewing with anyone else.

cj 2y ago
> It's a shitty question born out of the company trying to screw candidates Or a startup hiring for a job title they’ve never hired for before and they literally don’t know what the market rate is? We just hired our first SRE. We knew what we wanted for in the role but had no idea how to price it. What are we supposed to do other than ask candidates what their salary expectations are? There’s no bible saying what “market rate” is for every given role. You’re selling your services to an employer. It’s the candidate’s responsibility to know their worth and coherently communicate their worth to prospective employers. Just my opinion.
- sensanaty 2y ago
  Are you telling me startups don't have budgets predetermined before the role is ever even posted?
  - cj 2y ago
    Yes, for roles we’ve never hired for. In which case to find the market salary, we ask candidates (candidates are the market, we want to pay market rates. So, we ask candidates)
    - lubujackson 2y ago
      I dunno, a two minute LinkedIn search or Glassdoor search will give you all kinds of metrics for all kinds of roles and for companies at different stages, so I don't at all buy this argument. Especially for developers, you can get a crazy range of quality, experience and location at different multiples of cost. Like if I was buying a car I first determine my needs and money to spend then start searching in that band of prices. What if I just went to a cqr salesman and asked how much are you expecting to make from this sale? Is that a smart starting point for anyone?
    - mlhpdx 2y ago
      This isn’t just startups. Some companies have “bands” that define the range of pay for given titles, but many don’t. Even those that do are constantly questioning whether they are the right ones based on a wide variety of factors: Are salaries moving up, or moving down? Are there few candidates, or many? Is the value of this role to the company increasing or decreasing? Does the company have the cash flow? Will it have the cash flow in six months or a year? Etc. Sitting on either side of the hiring relationship it’s easy to simplify and vilify the other side. But it’s foolish to do so. Over time in your career folks may be on each, in turn.
    - tbrownaw 2y ago
      If I ask my favorite search engine for "technology salary guide", there are several first-page results that at least claim to provide just this. Are these less reliable that they look like they think they are, or... ?
- marcosdumay 2y ago
  If you go after one (or a few) person in particular, it's ok to ask that question. In fact, if you go after one person in particular that you know is a great fitting, there is almost no power disparity and lots of things become ok. But if you decide to just poll undifferentiated candidates to extract valuable information, well, that's really not ok.
- jiveturkey 2y ago
  > There’s no bible saying what “market rate” is for every given role there actually is. there are multiple salary benchmarks available. you should be using one.
- eschneider 2y ago
  Market salary information is out there and it shouldn't be too hard to figure out where you, as a company, want to place yourself. If you're going into interviews literally not knowing what the market rate is, you're wasting everyone's time. Yes, it's a candidate's responsibility to know their worth and communicate it to prospective employers. If prospective employers are ignorant of the market, they just look like they're unprofessional.
rsanek 2y ago
The best compensation results I got in my job searching history was when I told all the companies up-front what my timeline was and what week I was going to be making a decision, right at the beginning of the process (month+ in advance). I told them I am doing so with multiple other companies, which allowed me to align timelines and negotiate with many offers-in-hand.
- oblio 2y ago
  When did you last look for a job?
YZF 2y ago
I am a hiring manager. I don't have a budget. What I have are different comp levels that depend on the engineer's level. It's not in my interest to underpay an engineer and I'm not approaching the hiring process as trying to pay a candidate as little as possible. I'm trying to find a good hire and I want them to be happy working for me. I've worked for many tech companies and I've never seen anywhere there was some specific budget number attached to hiring an engineer. That's not to say there isn't some element of negotiation but it's generally at the margins (definitely not 20%). The reason I might ask about expectations is just not to waste people's time, not to screw the candidate. I ask about your process with others to know if I should try and get through the process faster on my side. Having a competitive offer might be relevant for the negotiation process but again it's at the margins. You also need to consider your compensation over time, you might be hired at a slightly higher comp but then it won't get adjusted as quickly. Once we've interviewed a candidate and have a good sense of where we think they are in terms of their level, and decide we want to hire them, then there's no problem sharing the numbers with them, at this point that's an offer. Before we can estimate the candidate's level I don't really think it's useful to tell them that if they're a "level 10" (or whatever) then the salary range is 44,000 to 46,000 dollars (or whatever). If a company posts a range of 100-300k for a software engineering role that doesn't mean that every candidate can negotiate a 320k salary. It means they're ok with hiring someone relatively junior at 100k or paying a significantly stronger candidate 300k. What I'm trying to say is that with a good employer there is actually alignment and win-win here. If you're dealing with a bad employer who is trying to take advantage of you there are probably better signals for that. The engineering manager who is hiring you into a large tech company is generally motivated to hire a good engineer and make sure they're happy.
- eschneider 2y ago
  It's the same on the candidate side. I know when I interview, what it'll take to bring me on board depends a lot on the company, the team, and what the position looks like. For something I absolutely want to be a part of, because all of the above are incredible, it's not going to take as much in compensation as a place that's not perfect in one aspect or another, but is otherwise nice at the right price. But I won't know where the company sits on that spectrum until after the interview.
brobdingnagians 2y ago
I know someone who was asked what the lowest they would take was, they answered honestly and then got screwed over by immediately being offered that exact number. The company had a much higher budget. If a company asks you that question, run. That's just a red flag for other problems lurking.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- jart 2y ago
  How is that screwing someone over? Maybe the company said that because the candidate was slightly underqualified for the role, and they would only hire if they felt like they were getting a deal and not taking too much risk. The low ball offer is better than a no. If I was being hired like that, I might view it as a foot in the door to prove how valuable I am. Besides you can always keep interviewing after you're hired to find better offers. Even if you don't take them, it'll give you more bargaining power.
  - paretoer 2y ago
    I would say it is a completely underhanded way to negotiate and I love negotiating. The only good answer to that bullshit question is "The maximum you are willing to pay". Then you can start over with a real negotiation. The best way to understand the company culture is by what is asked on the interview and what the person doing the interview is like. This question tells you everything you need to know about the company culture and that it is not going to be a good experience.
    - jart 2y ago
      Underhanded? Why don't you tell me what it means to you? If someone asked me what the minimum money I'm willing to take is, then I guess I might think they're the kind of company that would ask me questions like, "what's the minimum amount of RAM your program will need in production?" and stuff like that. Shrug.

cj 2y ago

> It's a shitty question born out of the company trying to screw candidates Or a startup hiring for a job title they’ve never hired for before and they literally don’t know what the market rate is? We just hired our first SRE. We knew what we wanted for in the role but had no idea how to price it. What are we supposed to do other than ask candidates what their salary expectations are? There’s no bible saying what “market rate” is for every given role. You’re selling your services to an employer. It’s the candidate’s responsibility to know their worth and coherently communicate their worth to prospective employers. Just my opinion.

sensanaty 2y ago
Are you telling me startups don't have budgets predetermined before the role is ever even posted?
- cj 2y ago
  Yes, for roles we’ve never hired for. In which case to find the market salary, we ask candidates (candidates are the market, we want to pay market rates. So, we ask candidates)
  - lubujackson 2y ago
    I dunno, a two minute LinkedIn search or Glassdoor search will give you all kinds of metrics for all kinds of roles and for companies at different stages, so I don't at all buy this argument. Especially for developers, you can get a crazy range of quality, experience and location at different multiples of cost. Like if I was buying a car I first determine my needs and money to spend then start searching in that band of prices. What if I just went to a cqr salesman and asked how much are you expecting to make from this sale? Is that a smart starting point for anyone?
  - mlhpdx 2y ago
    This isn’t just startups. Some companies have “bands” that define the range of pay for given titles, but many don’t. Even those that do are constantly questioning whether they are the right ones based on a wide variety of factors: Are salaries moving up, or moving down? Are there few candidates, or many? Is the value of this role to the company increasing or decreasing? Does the company have the cash flow? Will it have the cash flow in six months or a year? Etc. Sitting on either side of the hiring relationship it’s easy to simplify and vilify the other side. But it’s foolish to do so. Over time in your career folks may be on each, in turn.
  - tbrownaw 2y ago
    If I ask my favorite search engine for "technology salary guide", there are several first-page results that at least claim to provide just this. Are these less reliable that they look like they think they are, or... ?
marcosdumay 2y ago
If you go after one (or a few) person in particular, it's ok to ask that question. In fact, if you go after one person in particular that you know is a great fitting, there is almost no power disparity and lots of things become ok. But if you decide to just poll undifferentiated candidates to extract valuable information, well, that's really not ok.
jiveturkey 2y ago
> There’s no bible saying what “market rate” is for every given role there actually is. there are multiple salary benchmarks available. you should be using one.
eschneider 2y ago
Market salary information is out there and it shouldn't be too hard to figure out where you, as a company, want to place yourself. If you're going into interviews literally not knowing what the market rate is, you're wasting everyone's time. Yes, it's a candidate's responsibility to know their worth and communicate it to prospective employers. If prospective employers are ignorant of the market, they just look like they're unprofessional.

rsanek 2y ago

The best compensation results I got in my job searching history was when I told all the companies up-front what my timeline was and what week I was going to be making a decision, right at the beginning of the process (month+ in advance). I told them I am doing so with multiple other companies, which allowed me to align timelines and negotiate with many offers-in-hand.

oblio 2y ago
When did you last look for a job?

YZF 2y ago

I am a hiring manager. I don't have a budget. What I have are different comp levels that depend on the engineer's level. It's not in my interest to underpay an engineer and I'm not approaching the hiring process as trying to pay a candidate as little as possible. I'm trying to find a good hire and I want them to be happy working for me. I've worked for many tech companies and I've never seen anywhere there was some specific budget number attached to hiring an engineer. That's not to say there isn't some element of negotiation but it's generally at the margins (definitely not 20%). The reason I might ask about expectations is just not to waste people's time, not to screw the candidate. I ask about your process with others to know if I should try and get through the process faster on my side. Having a competitive offer might be relevant for the negotiation process but again it's at the margins. You also need to consider your compensation over time, you might be hired at a slightly higher comp but then it won't get adjusted as quickly. Once we've interviewed a candidate and have a good sense of where we think they are in terms of their level, and decide we want to hire them, then there's no problem sharing the numbers with them, at this point that's an offer. Before we can estimate the candidate's level I don't really think it's useful to tell them that if they're a "level 10" (or whatever) then the salary range is 44,000 to 46,000 dollars (or whatever). If a company posts a range of 100-300k for a software engineering role that doesn't mean that every candidate can negotiate a 320k salary. It means they're ok with hiring someone relatively junior at 100k or paying a significantly stronger candidate 300k. What I'm trying to say is that with a good employer there is actually alignment and win-win here. If you're dealing with a bad employer who is trying to take advantage of you there are probably better signals for that. The engineering manager who is hiring you into a large tech company is generally motivated to hire a good engineer and make sure they're happy.

eschneider 2y ago
It's the same on the candidate side. I know when I interview, what it'll take to bring me on board depends a lot on the company, the team, and what the position looks like. For something I absolutely want to be a part of, because all of the above are incredible, it's not going to take as much in compensation as a place that's not perfect in one aspect or another, but is otherwise nice at the right price. But I won't know where the company sits on that spectrum until after the interview.

brobdingnagians 2y ago

I know someone who was asked what the lowest they would take was, they answered honestly and then got screwed over by immediately being offered that exact number. The company had a much higher budget. If a company asks you that question, run. That's just a red flag for other problems lurking.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
jart 2y ago
How is that screwing someone over? Maybe the company said that because the candidate was slightly underqualified for the role, and they would only hire if they felt like they were getting a deal and not taking too much risk. The low ball offer is better than a no. If I was being hired like that, I might view it as a foot in the door to prove how valuable I am. Besides you can always keep interviewing after you're hired to find better offers. Even if you don't take them, it'll give you more bargaining power.
- paretoer 2y ago
  I would say it is a completely underhanded way to negotiate and I love negotiating. The only good answer to that bullshit question is "The maximum you are willing to pay". Then you can start over with a real negotiation. The best way to understand the company culture is by what is asked on the interview and what the person doing the interview is like. This question tells you everything you need to know about the company culture and that it is not going to be a good experience.
  - jart 2y ago
    Underhanded? Why don't you tell me what it means to you? If someone asked me what the minimum money I'm willing to take is, then I guess I might think they're the kind of company that would ask me questions like, "what's the minimum amount of RAM your program will need in production?" and stuff like that. Shrug.