5 ms·

One question candidates like to ask me: "What's your biggest challenge over the next year? Next 5 years?" and then.. "How is this role contributing toward sol

by cj 2y ago

One question candidates like to ask me: "What's your biggest challenge over the next year? Next 5 years?" and then.. "How is this role contributing toward solving that challenge?" (Sometimes people replace "challenges" with "vision" or "goal") These question catches me off guard sometimes. But if I were the candidate, they are great questions to expose whether a company is hiring this role to fix a problem (if so there are probably very specific expectations) or are they hiring the role to make a good thing better. Dirty secret about interviews: there are very few questions a candidate can ask that would leave a negative impression. You can literally ask "Are you profitable?" or "What is the turnover rate of your team?" or "If you had to improve our team culture, what's one thing you would change?" or even "I've worked at a lot of companies that don't know what they're doing. What's your plan?" On the interviewer side, there's also very few questions candidates won't answer. I always ask what their salary expectations are, where they are in the process with other companies, how they like to be managed, etc --- occasionally there's someone who's dodgy with these questions, but 95% of candidates are extremely transparent. I return the favor by happily answering any questions a candidate asks. It's a big decision on both sides to hire someone or accept an offer, so no point in putting on a facade.

mcny 2y ago
Thank you for the insightful comment. One small nit though > I always ask what their salary expectations are I thought we were supposed to never answer this question. Why do you even bother asking this question? You have a budget for any role, right? Why not share this information instead of asking people how much they want? Does it matter if I want a million dollars a year?
- cqqxo4zV46cp 2y ago
  What? Have you ever hired before? This sounds exactly like the unrealistically simple view of someone that’s never been in this position before. You thought people were never supposed to answer that question? Well, they do. Especially developers, who are more introverted than average, on average, and are easy to catch off guard. I have a budget, sure. Unless your corporate setup is one that especially takes all power away from hiring managers, it’s almost always more complex than that. Maybe I could move some money around to free more budget up. Maybe someone on my team is a retention risk and I need to weigh up priorities. Maybe a billion billion other things. Your personal budget, no matter how implicit or explicit it is, almost certainly isn’t this simple so I have no idea why anyone thinks it works this way at work. Any organisation that is that simple and rigid isn’t capable of rolling with the punches, and isn’t somewhere anyone should want to work.
- cj 2y ago
  > Why do you even bother asking this question? If someone is asking for $250k and we're budgeting $150k, I don't want to waste their (and my) time.
  - throwaway6977 2y ago
    If that's the case perhaps you could, I don't know, state that up front and save everyone some time...
    - cj 2y ago
      (Last reply I’ll post here): I guess just to be ultra clear so there’s no ambiguity. At our company no candidate talks to anyone at our company before talking to our 3rd party recruiter who screens all candidates before they make it to us. The recruiter has short 15-20 min pre-screening calls with candidates and she’s responsible for weeding out candidates who are likely to not be a fit. A major category to evaluate is mutual compensation expectations (what are they expecting to be paid, what are we expecting to pay). I don’t have full visibility into how our recruiter articulates this part of the screening call. She says some candidates don’t have a salary in mind, in which case she shares the lower bound of our range to feel them out. All roles have a salary range, e.g. could be $130-160k. We don’t just come out and say that, otherwise everyone will want the top end of the range, even if (in our opinion) their experience matches closer to the bottom or middle of the range. It’s an art, not a science. My goal is to not overpay for a role if we don’t have to. (Important: overpay doesn’t mean underpay!) more importantly, I want the person we’re hiring to be happy with the compensation. I don’t want to hire someone who’s going to quit in 6 months for a higher paying role. It’s a negotiation and both sides are trying to find the “market rate” through the process. You can be bitter about this fact, but it’s a simple reality in business. That’s just how things work.
      - rsanek 2y ago
        You must not be a US-based company -- many states / cities now require posting salary ranges on job ads. Based on population, it covers ~25% of all US workers https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/03/where-us-companies-have-to-share-salary-ranges-with-workers-by-law.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/03/where-us-companies-have-to-s...
- Terretta 2y ago
  > I thought we were supposed to never answer this question. It is legal to ask what they're looking for or "expect". It is not legal in many US jurisdictions (California, New York as notable ones) to ask what they made at their prior job. The first question is necessary since the numbers have to start somewhere. The second question tends to perpetuate any comp bias the interviewee may have been subject to previously. That said, as the interviewee, it's fair to turn the order of setting expectations on its head: “I hear your question, but first, what are you expecting to spend to fill this?” If they object you can try again: “You are a differentiated business with differentiated priorities, meaning your roles provide different returns on investment relative to other companies. What value do you put on this role?” If they object again, and you are confident in your value creation, try: “One of us has to start with expectations, so I'll start with this — based on my prior roles, I expect to have fully paid for myself within the first X days/weeks/months. My expectation is that will be true here as well.” Reality is a candidate's dollar "value" to a firm does in fact depend on the utility the firm can make of that skill. This is largely out of the candidate's control. As such, the firm should reveal the range they have in mind first.
  - mathgeek 2y ago
    > The first question is necessary since the numbers have to start somewhere. It’s not, though. The only thing asking the candidate for a number specifically generates is leverage for the company performing the interview. The company can just as easily provide a range to start “the numbers” and display good will to boot.
    - mrmetanoia 2y ago
      It's like they've started applying that 'value based' pricing bullshit to salaries.
      - mathgeek 2y ago
        I’m sure they do that somewhere. Most places it’s a simple “this chart shows industry salaries favor the employer by some percentage when the following question is asked” during training.
- makeitdouble 2y ago
  > I thought we were supposed to never answer this question. As a candidate that's the first question I get, and as an interviewer it also helps a lot. I understand the risk to abuse the info to low ball a candidate, but setting an expectation level as early as possible helps to better target the interview process and be more efficient when it won't work out. If someone is asking for a CTO level salary but but we're seeing they'd fit an entry level position, it needs to be discussed at the second round, not at the last round after both sides spent 6h of overall process. Having the info earlier also helps better target the interview, in particular to justify the person fits in the role. If you're only doing 2~3 interview, they better be well targeted.
sensanaty 2y ago
> I always ask what their salary expectations are... My reply is pretty much always "What's your budget?". If they tell me the budget, I say the top of what they said or sometimes a bit above it (because it's pretty much a guarantee that they're lying about the real budget), if they don't or try weasel out of it, I tell them I'm not comfortable answering without knowing what I should realistically be looking at (and they get negative points from my POV, because why be sneaky with this kind of info?) It's a shitty question born out of the company trying to screw candidates if they say the wrong number unknowingly. Too high of an expectation? That's a negative mark. Too low? Great, we can fuck them over by underpaying them 20% below what we would've if we'd just posted the salary. Same with all the other similar ones. Where am I in the process with others? None of your business, I just say I'm not interviewing with anyone else.
- cj 2y ago
  > It's a shitty question born out of the company trying to screw candidates Or a startup hiring for a job title they’ve never hired for before and they literally don’t know what the market rate is? We just hired our first SRE. We knew what we wanted for in the role but had no idea how to price it. What are we supposed to do other than ask candidates what their salary expectations are? There’s no bible saying what “market rate” is for every given role. You’re selling your services to an employer. It’s the candidate’s responsibility to know their worth and coherently communicate their worth to prospective employers. Just my opinion.
  - sensanaty 2y ago
    Are you telling me startups don't have budgets predetermined before the role is ever even posted?
    - cj 2y ago
      Yes, for roles we’ve never hired for. In which case to find the market salary, we ask candidates (candidates are the market, we want to pay market rates. So, we ask candidates)
mito88 2y ago
5 years: "In five years, I see myself as an important part of this organization, having grown in my role and contributing to the company's success...." next year: "achieve 20% of the above..." :)

by cj 2y ago

mcny 2y ago

Thank you for the insightful comment. One small nit though > I always ask what their salary expectations are I thought we were supposed to never answer this question. Why do you even bother asking this question? You have a budget for any role, right? Why not share this information instead of asking people how much they want? Does it matter if I want a million dollars a year?

cqqxo4zV46cp 2y ago
What? Have you ever hired before? This sounds exactly like the unrealistically simple view of someone that’s never been in this position before. You thought people were never supposed to answer that question? Well, they do. Especially developers, who are more introverted than average, on average, and are easy to catch off guard. I have a budget, sure. Unless your corporate setup is one that especially takes all power away from hiring managers, it’s almost always more complex than that. Maybe I could move some money around to free more budget up. Maybe someone on my team is a retention risk and I need to weigh up priorities. Maybe a billion billion other things. Your personal budget, no matter how implicit or explicit it is, almost certainly isn’t this simple so I have no idea why anyone thinks it works this way at work. Any organisation that is that simple and rigid isn’t capable of rolling with the punches, and isn’t somewhere anyone should want to work.
cj 2y ago
> Why do you even bother asking this question? If someone is asking for $250k and we're budgeting $150k, I don't want to waste their (and my) time.
- throwaway6977 2y ago
  If that's the case perhaps you could, I don't know, state that up front and save everyone some time...
  - cj 2y ago
    (Last reply I’ll post here): I guess just to be ultra clear so there’s no ambiguity. At our company no candidate talks to anyone at our company before talking to our 3rd party recruiter who screens all candidates before they make it to us. The recruiter has short 15-20 min pre-screening calls with candidates and she’s responsible for weeding out candidates who are likely to not be a fit. A major category to evaluate is mutual compensation expectations (what are they expecting to be paid, what are we expecting to pay). I don’t have full visibility into how our recruiter articulates this part of the screening call. She says some candidates don’t have a salary in mind, in which case she shares the lower bound of our range to feel them out. All roles have a salary range, e.g. could be $130-160k. We don’t just come out and say that, otherwise everyone will want the top end of the range, even if (in our opinion) their experience matches closer to the bottom or middle of the range. It’s an art, not a science. My goal is to not overpay for a role if we don’t have to. (Important: overpay doesn’t mean underpay!) more importantly, I want the person we’re hiring to be happy with the compensation. I don’t want to hire someone who’s going to quit in 6 months for a higher paying role. It’s a negotiation and both sides are trying to find the “market rate” through the process. You can be bitter about this fact, but it’s a simple reality in business. That’s just how things work.
    - rsanek 2y ago
      You must not be a US-based company -- many states / cities now require posting salary ranges on job ads. Based on population, it covers ~25% of all US workers https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/03/where-us-companies-have-to-share-salary-ranges-with-workers-by-law.html https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/03/where-us-companies-have-to-s...
Terretta 2y ago
> I thought we were supposed to never answer this question. It is legal to ask what they're looking for or "expect". It is not legal in many US jurisdictions (California, New York as notable ones) to ask what they made at their prior job. The first question is necessary since the numbers have to start somewhere. The second question tends to perpetuate any comp bias the interviewee may have been subject to previously. That said, as the interviewee, it's fair to turn the order of setting expectations on its head: “I hear your question, but first, what are you expecting to spend to fill this?” If they object you can try again: “You are a differentiated business with differentiated priorities, meaning your roles provide different returns on investment relative to other companies. What value do you put on this role?” If they object again, and you are confident in your value creation, try: “One of us has to start with expectations, so I'll start with this — based on my prior roles, I expect to have fully paid for myself within the first X days/weeks/months. My expectation is that will be true here as well.” Reality is a candidate's dollar "value" to a firm does in fact depend on the utility the firm can make of that skill. This is largely out of the candidate's control. As such, the firm should reveal the range they have in mind first.
- mathgeek 2y ago
  > The first question is necessary since the numbers have to start somewhere. It’s not, though. The only thing asking the candidate for a number specifically generates is leverage for the company performing the interview. The company can just as easily provide a range to start “the numbers” and display good will to boot.
  - mrmetanoia 2y ago
    It's like they've started applying that 'value based' pricing bullshit to salaries.
    - mathgeek 2y ago
      I’m sure they do that somewhere. Most places it’s a simple “this chart shows industry salaries favor the employer by some percentage when the following question is asked” during training.
makeitdouble 2y ago
> I thought we were supposed to never answer this question. As a candidate that's the first question I get, and as an interviewer it also helps a lot. I understand the risk to abuse the info to low ball a candidate, but setting an expectation level as early as possible helps to better target the interview process and be more efficient when it won't work out. If someone is asking for a CTO level salary but but we're seeing they'd fit an entry level position, it needs to be discussed at the second round, not at the last round after both sides spent 6h of overall process. Having the info earlier also helps better target the interview, in particular to justify the person fits in the role. If you're only doing 2~3 interview, they better be well targeted.

sensanaty 2y ago

> I always ask what their salary expectations are... My reply is pretty much always "What's your budget?". If they tell me the budget, I say the top of what they said or sometimes a bit above it (because it's pretty much a guarantee that they're lying about the real budget), if they don't or try weasel out of it, I tell them I'm not comfortable answering without knowing what I should realistically be looking at (and they get negative points from my POV, because why be sneaky with this kind of info?) It's a shitty question born out of the company trying to screw candidates if they say the wrong number unknowingly. Too high of an expectation? That's a negative mark. Too low? Great, we can fuck them over by underpaying them 20% below what we would've if we'd just posted the salary. Same with all the other similar ones. Where am I in the process with others? None of your business, I just say I'm not interviewing with anyone else.

cj 2y ago
> It's a shitty question born out of the company trying to screw candidates Or a startup hiring for a job title they’ve never hired for before and they literally don’t know what the market rate is? We just hired our first SRE. We knew what we wanted for in the role but had no idea how to price it. What are we supposed to do other than ask candidates what their salary expectations are? There’s no bible saying what “market rate” is for every given role. You’re selling your services to an employer. It’s the candidate’s responsibility to know their worth and coherently communicate their worth to prospective employers. Just my opinion.
- sensanaty 2y ago
  Are you telling me startups don't have budgets predetermined before the role is ever even posted?
  - cj 2y ago
    Yes, for roles we’ve never hired for. In which case to find the market salary, we ask candidates (candidates are the market, we want to pay market rates. So, we ask candidates)

mito88 2y ago

5 years: "In five years, I see myself as an important part of this organization, having grown in my role and contributing to the company's success...." next year: "achieve 20% of the above..." :)