4 ms·

Another issue is the US education System. Yes there is and always will be a need for skilled people from other Countries. But in the US, many High School grad

by jmclnx 2y ago

Another issue is the US education System. Yes there is and always will be a need for skilled people from other Countries. But in the US, many High School grads need to be re-taught some basic high-school level courses as freshmen. This started in the 80s. I remember a couple of profs telling me this. But many US communities cannot afford to provide a good education for various reasons. To me, the largest reason is no one wants to pay taxes.

jimbob45 2y ago
But in the US, many High School grads need to be re-taught some basic high-school level courses as freshmen. Which pales in comparison to the English education immigrants need but never receive.
- gwervc 2y ago
  > Which pales in comparison to the English education immigrants need but never receive. ??? So people can travel half the world and fill all the paperwork to immigrate to the US but somehow then can't register to a language class? At some point we should stop blaming society for laziness of individuals. It never has been that easy to learn languages (esp. English) and for free thanks to the internet.
- trollbridge 2y ago
  Immigrant founders or other highly skilled tech workers I've been around who speak English as a second language have, for the most part, had excellent English skills.
darvinyraghpath 2y ago
I will say - as someone selecting schools now for my kid - the thing I worry about is my child being surrounded by other bright, motivated kids. In my experience that's the kind of thing that makes them be better - much more than 'great schools'. It's the same reason folks move to the bay - to be where the 'best' are.
- trollbridge 2y ago
  I also worry about making sure my children are socialised around average and, yes, some below-average children, and some unmotivated ones, too. I'm not sure growing up in a "bubble" of only the bright and motivated is the healthiest social approach. It's valuable to go to school with people who don't look like you and think the same way you do.
  - tazu 2y ago
    > It's valuable to go to school with people who don't look like you and think the same way you do. I did and it was incredibly alienating. I will make sure my kids don't have to go through that.
- smitty1e 2y ago
  With 5th & 8th graders, my chief concern is the perceived anti-Western slant that the schools my taxes support have apparently subscribed to of late. Hence my willingness to float private tuition on top of taxes. I don't care to have them grow up confused regarding the basics.
- aj7 2y ago
  This is right. I’m an MIT physics SB. The undergraduate curriculum is pretty uniform across schools. A lot of our teachers were poor. But what was being taught, and is always taught at top schools, is mannerisms. What does an actual physicist do? What are his attitudes towards this and that? What is important and what can be ignored? And a lot of those mannerism are taught, reinforced, and related by peers.
trollbridge 2y ago
One would think that, but the recent educational attainment surveys (PISA would be an example) show Americans performing well on the whole. There are going to be people from any population that don't learn very much in high school, but overall, Americans are a well-educated lot of people. Spending on education is at fairly high levels (for example, some major cities spend over $20,000 per student per year), with surprisingly little impact on results versus districts that spend a lot less. I would say that the public as a whole is willing to spend on taxes for schools, too. I see tax increases for schools generally passing at the local level plus more spending at both the state and federal level going through. There may be a lot of room for discussion about /how/ that money is being spent.
akira2501 2y ago
You can live a good life in America with very little education. What incentive is there for students and parents to demand better? It's the same reason our college campuses look like theme parks.
- trollbridge 2y ago
  When I worked in university administration, the quality of food, HVAC in dorms, and other luxury facilities like gyms was a top priority along with a large array of activities to keep students occupied. (The food was excellent and I indulged every few weeks, but it was also pricey on a college employee's salary.) When my parents were in school.. their description (at an Ivy League-tier school) was of basically inedible food in the cafeteria, and the food being particularly bad on certain days, and no air conditioning (in a hot, muggy part of the south). Their other set of memories was of complete academic excellence where nearly everyone was driven to be their best at whatever they did. My dad paid for it with a job working in a steel mill during the summer. They were both first-generation college students.
  - paulmd 2y ago
    this is just "99.6% of 'poors' have a refrigerator" but for college. HVAC in dorms is not what is driving up college costs, and in fact probably has become increasingly necessary because of the fossil fuels burned by your parents' generation since then. odds are also quite good that there was substantially less "academic focus" than Father presented there as being too... college kids being drunk goofs isn't a new thing either. just like "nobody wants to work", I'm sure these sorts of things have recirculated over millennia
    - akira2501 2y ago
      > and in fact probably has become increasingly necessary because of the fossil fuels burned by your parents' generation since then. Yet, when I tell people that climate change rhetoric creates hysteria, they refuse to acknowledge it. > I'm sure these sorts of things have recirculated over millennia No one in recorded human history has ever come remotely close to the standard of living that you, presumably an average person, now enjoy. It is valid to wonder what the limits of this progress might be or if the scale of benefit shows diminishing returns. Anyways, moving the goalposts away from basic Air Conditioning, we have _literal_ theme parks[0]. [0]: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/colleges-with-the-craziest-waterparks-144305876.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/colleges-with-the-craziest-wa...
highcountess 2y ago
Not only is paying taxes not even correlated with education spending, spending per student is extremely high all across the USA and results are extremely poor, especially on a spending basis.
- searealist 2y ago
  While spending is high, results are among the best in the world.
  - tourmalinetaco 2y ago
    Certainly not across the board, and especially not in poorer areas that cannot/will not fund their schools. That is an incredibly general statement that simply is factually incorrect.
    - searealist 2y ago
      My statement is absolutely true once you control for demographics.
      - tourmalinetaco 2y ago
        Can you provide sources for this then?
        TMWNN 2y ago
        Since searealist has not, I will. <https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1732087511327908128 https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1732087511327908128> Basically, every US ethnic group does better than their countries of origin.
        tourmalinetaco 2y ago
        Thank you for the source, this is rather interesting. However I believe there’s some level of miscommunication. My original comment was in reference to the inequality within the distribution of funds due to inequality of tax revenue across the country, and how that affects the learning opportunities of less-privileged kids who, I would argue, are in more of a need for better education to escape their lower income bracket.
searealist 2y ago
American schools are the best in the world. Compare the performance of any demographic in American schools to that of their native countries.
- TMWNN 2y ago
  Correct. <https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1732478253225443777 https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1732478253225443777>
tourmalinetaco 2y ago
> To me, the largest reason is no one wants to pay taxes. You do understand you don’t get to choose to pay taxes, right? Federal income tax is certainly immoral, and no one wants to pay it, but for most they cannot be bothered to fight it in some way. They take the tax credits they’re given and pay the rest out of pocket. And that’s assuming it isn’t already taken out before they even get the check. The true problem is that the American government at various levels pockets a lot of it, and what they don’t pocket is spent on things such as funding unnecessary wars, subsidizing European healthcare via military assistance, and restricting American rights. And after all of that, by the time the school is involved it’s filled with a standardized curriculum that’s built on memorization and not genuine education.

by jmclnx 2y ago

jimbob45 2y ago

But in the US, many High School grads need to be re-taught some basic high-school level courses as freshmen. Which pales in comparison to the English education immigrants need but never receive.

gwervc 2y ago
> Which pales in comparison to the English education immigrants need but never receive. ??? So people can travel half the world and fill all the paperwork to immigrate to the US but somehow then can't register to a language class? At some point we should stop blaming society for laziness of individuals. It never has been that easy to learn languages (esp. English) and for free thanks to the internet.
trollbridge 2y ago
Immigrant founders or other highly skilled tech workers I've been around who speak English as a second language have, for the most part, had excellent English skills.

darvinyraghpath 2y ago

I will say - as someone selecting schools now for my kid - the thing I worry about is my child being surrounded by other bright, motivated kids. In my experience that's the kind of thing that makes them be better - much more than 'great schools'. It's the same reason folks move to the bay - to be where the 'best' are.

trollbridge 2y ago
I also worry about making sure my children are socialised around average and, yes, some below-average children, and some unmotivated ones, too. I'm not sure growing up in a "bubble" of only the bright and motivated is the healthiest social approach. It's valuable to go to school with people who don't look like you and think the same way you do.
- tazu 2y ago
  > It's valuable to go to school with people who don't look like you and think the same way you do. I did and it was incredibly alienating. I will make sure my kids don't have to go through that.
smitty1e 2y ago
With 5th & 8th graders, my chief concern is the perceived anti-Western slant that the schools my taxes support have apparently subscribed to of late. Hence my willingness to float private tuition on top of taxes. I don't care to have them grow up confused regarding the basics.
aj7 2y ago
This is right. I’m an MIT physics SB. The undergraduate curriculum is pretty uniform across schools. A lot of our teachers were poor. But what was being taught, and is always taught at top schools, is mannerisms. What does an actual physicist do? What are his attitudes towards this and that? What is important and what can be ignored? And a lot of those mannerism are taught, reinforced, and related by peers.

trollbridge 2y ago

One would think that, but the recent educational attainment surveys (PISA would be an example) show Americans performing well on the whole. There are going to be people from any population that don't learn very much in high school, but overall, Americans are a well-educated lot of people. Spending on education is at fairly high levels (for example, some major cities spend over $20,000 per student per year), with surprisingly little impact on results versus districts that spend a lot less. I would say that the public as a whole is willing to spend on taxes for schools, too. I see tax increases for schools generally passing at the local level plus more spending at both the state and federal level going through. There may be a lot of room for discussion about /how/ that money is being spent.

akira2501 2y ago

You can live a good life in America with very little education. What incentive is there for students and parents to demand better? It's the same reason our college campuses look like theme parks.

trollbridge 2y ago
When I worked in university administration, the quality of food, HVAC in dorms, and other luxury facilities like gyms was a top priority along with a large array of activities to keep students occupied. (The food was excellent and I indulged every few weeks, but it was also pricey on a college employee's salary.) When my parents were in school.. their description (at an Ivy League-tier school) was of basically inedible food in the cafeteria, and the food being particularly bad on certain days, and no air conditioning (in a hot, muggy part of the south). Their other set of memories was of complete academic excellence where nearly everyone was driven to be their best at whatever they did. My dad paid for it with a job working in a steel mill during the summer. They were both first-generation college students.
- paulmd 2y ago
  this is just "99.6% of 'poors' have a refrigerator" but for college. HVAC in dorms is not what is driving up college costs, and in fact probably has become increasingly necessary because of the fossil fuels burned by your parents' generation since then. odds are also quite good that there was substantially less "academic focus" than Father presented there as being too... college kids being drunk goofs isn't a new thing either. just like "nobody wants to work", I'm sure these sorts of things have recirculated over millennia
  - akira2501 2y ago
    > and in fact probably has become increasingly necessary because of the fossil fuels burned by your parents' generation since then. Yet, when I tell people that climate change rhetoric creates hysteria, they refuse to acknowledge it. > I'm sure these sorts of things have recirculated over millennia No one in recorded human history has ever come remotely close to the standard of living that you, presumably an average person, now enjoy. It is valid to wonder what the limits of this progress might be or if the scale of benefit shows diminishing returns. Anyways, moving the goalposts away from basic Air Conditioning, we have _literal_ theme parks[0]. [0]: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/colleges-with-the-craziest-waterparks-144305876.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/colleges-with-the-craziest-wa...

highcountess 2y ago

Not only is paying taxes not even correlated with education spending, spending per student is extremely high all across the USA and results are extremely poor, especially on a spending basis.

searealist 2y ago
While spending is high, results are among the best in the world.
- tourmalinetaco 2y ago
  Certainly not across the board, and especially not in poorer areas that cannot/will not fund their schools. That is an incredibly general statement that simply is factually incorrect.
  - searealist 2y ago
    My statement is absolutely true once you control for demographics.
    - tourmalinetaco 2y ago
      Can you provide sources for this then?
      - TMWNN 2y ago
        Since searealist has not, I will. <https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1732087511327908128 https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1732087511327908128> Basically, every US ethnic group does better than their countries of origin.
        tourmalinetaco 2y ago
        Thank you for the source, this is rather interesting. However I believe there’s some level of miscommunication. My original comment was in reference to the inequality within the distribution of funds due to inequality of tax revenue across the country, and how that affects the learning opportunities of less-privileged kids who, I would argue, are in more of a need for better education to escape their lower income bracket.

searealist 2y ago

American schools are the best in the world. Compare the performance of any demographic in American schools to that of their native countries.

TMWNN 2y ago
Correct. <https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1732478253225443777 https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1732478253225443777>

tourmalinetaco 2y ago

> To me, the largest reason is no one wants to pay taxes. You do understand you don’t get to choose to pay taxes, right? Federal income tax is certainly immoral, and no one wants to pay it, but for most they cannot be bothered to fight it in some way. They take the tax credits they’re given and pay the rest out of pocket. And that’s assuming it isn’t already taken out before they even get the check. The true problem is that the American government at various levels pockets a lot of it, and what they don’t pocket is spent on things such as funding unnecessary wars, subsidizing European healthcare via military assistance, and restricting American rights. And after all of that, by the time the school is involved it’s filled with a standardized curriculum that’s built on memorization and not genuine education.