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> Sometimes that translates to aloofness for staff, but what more often happens is that when the CEO _does_ come in they expect other people to be there. Anecd

> Sometimes that translates to aloofness for staff, but what more often happens is that when the CEO _does_ come in they expect other people to be there. Anecdotally, I have seen companies that have "oscillations" in their WFH policy and this, in my experience, has often been the driver of it. Instead of putting trust in the process or the data, you will simply have a situation where the CEO or (especially) where a group of the top level execs are all in the office on a particular day when the office 'feels empty', which then results in a "where is everyone" conversation. Couple that with a sniff of an internal deadline being missed or something behind schedule and suddenly you have a perfect storm of discontent resulting in updated WFH rules and policies being hastily fired off without regard to actual performance data or previous commitments or conclusions drawn around WFH policy. > Make a fun space, and make people's work schedules be loose enough to where they can actually relax in the space, and some people will show up! Personally, I don't care about having my workplace be fun or loaded with too many amenities. But if I'm going to be in a company workplace, I do need an office with a closing door if I'm expected to be able to focus and be productive. So much of the insanity with the WFH debate is employers who think that people can be productive or enjoy their work when working in loud, open-concept office configurations. For a lot of employees the WFH vs. office debate then feels very much a "my private, quiet home office vs. chaotic, loud office environment" debate.

whiterknight 2y ago
> a group of the top level execs are all in the office on a particular day when the office 'feels empty' > internal deadline being missed What indicators would justify a change in WFH policy?
- brandon272 2y ago
  No worthwhile indicators, other than the gut feelings of the decision makers in that moment.
- BobaFloutist 2y ago
  I think they were talking about internal deadlines being missed at about baseline levels, but the timing coincides with when the execs happen to feel like the office is empty so they make a mental association. A measurable increase in missed deadlines is not what I think they meant.
ern 2y ago
I think the introduction of WFH during the pandemic hurt a lot of IT workers in the long-run. In the interests of “fairness” they are being ordered back to the office post-Covid even when their work processes mean they can be done perfectly well remotely, and even if they have widely geographically-distributed teams. Anecdotal, but we had a team that was split with 50% working remotely before Covid, and we saw an improvement when everyone was forced to work remotely: conversations that were being held in person were shared openly.
- nox101 2y ago
  I see the opposite. Conversations that used to happen in ear reach so I'd know what was going on with various team members and be able to contribute when I knew a solution are now conversation that happen in private chat or private VC. Productivity is way down. Even more interesting, a team lead lives in another country 6 times zones away. Some times they visit the main office for 1-2 weeks. Productivity shoots through the roof those weeks.
  - ok_dad 2y ago
    Well yea, when I go on a work trip I tend to work a lot more those weeks because I’m not home. That doesn’t mean productivity during those two weeks are representative of normal.
    - DAGdug 2y ago
      It’s the local team, not the traveling team lead, that’s being spoken of here.
      - hnlmorg 2y ago
        It’s the same root cause. If there are foreign workers in town for a week then the whole team will often work around the visitors schedule.
  - Olreich 2y ago
    Sounds like you need a group chat that people are willing to talk in. If that isn’t happening, then there’s a barrier to doing it that you need to resolve. Could be they’re fine with you listening in, but not the manager. Could be something else. Fix that, and get back to productive remotely.
rtpg 2y ago
yeah, I meant "fun" perhaps in a more open sense of "people are not just annoyed at everything all the time", perhaps "relaxed" is the right word. I am not a superfan of actual closet office given, like, CO2 and friends, but having at least semi-closed spaces with some degree of privacy for groups of people feels totally reasonable. I always think about how some grad students at my university (paired 4 off to an office) had a nicer-feeling office space than any tech office I've been to short of a handful
borplk 2y ago
Yes and some people don't appreciate that some jobs really do require quiet focus for extended periods of time. Asking someone to be a programmer in a loud chaotic open office environment is not dissimilar to asking them to program while juggling two balls and sitting on a unicycle. Its just excess difficulty that doesn't need to be added on top of the jobs.
- tayo42 2y ago
  in hindsight its amazing anything actually ever got done
  - sbrother 2y ago
    Realistically the actual work got done in the evening after going home.
    - hughesjj 2y ago
      Hell this is still the case for high meeting days
  - steveBK123 2y ago
    My team is very small remote-primary, but we will travel to each others cities / offices quarterly or so. We have long since given up on getting any work done on our in-office days, but see them as collaborative / bonding / light planning only. It's gotten to the point that even if we fly to each others city for a week, we might only go to the office 2~3 days, or by Wednesday/Thursday we might by physically collocated but go to different rooms in silence with headphones to actually get work done. As a dev these days are actually pretty stressful as they have the feeling of creating work faster than doing any of it. It makes me remember how unproductive my dev teams used to be with the constant in-office interruptions. At prior jobs, I used to do most of my actual dev work after hours, and on unilaterally declared WFH days
- bryanrasmussen 2y ago
  I actually like that environment, unless I'm having problems debugging something. If something is not working after an hour or so I am on edge and need peace and quiet, but otherwise I can program fine for most tasks with noise around me.

whiterknight 2y ago

> a group of the top level execs are all in the office on a particular day when the office 'feels empty' > internal deadline being missed What indicators would justify a change in WFH policy?

brandon272 2y ago
No worthwhile indicators, other than the gut feelings of the decision makers in that moment.
BobaFloutist 2y ago
I think they were talking about internal deadlines being missed at about baseline levels, but the timing coincides with when the execs happen to feel like the office is empty so they make a mental association. A measurable increase in missed deadlines is not what I think they meant.

ern 2y ago

I think the introduction of WFH during the pandemic hurt a lot of IT workers in the long-run. In the interests of “fairness” they are being ordered back to the office post-Covid even when their work processes mean they can be done perfectly well remotely, and even if they have widely geographically-distributed teams. Anecdotal, but we had a team that was split with 50% working remotely before Covid, and we saw an improvement when everyone was forced to work remotely: conversations that were being held in person were shared openly.

nox101 2y ago
I see the opposite. Conversations that used to happen in ear reach so I'd know what was going on with various team members and be able to contribute when I knew a solution are now conversation that happen in private chat or private VC. Productivity is way down. Even more interesting, a team lead lives in another country 6 times zones away. Some times they visit the main office for 1-2 weeks. Productivity shoots through the roof those weeks.
- ok_dad 2y ago
  Well yea, when I go on a work trip I tend to work a lot more those weeks because I’m not home. That doesn’t mean productivity during those two weeks are representative of normal.
  - DAGdug 2y ago
    It’s the local team, not the traveling team lead, that’s being spoken of here.
    - hnlmorg 2y ago
      It’s the same root cause. If there are foreign workers in town for a week then the whole team will often work around the visitors schedule.
- Olreich 2y ago
  Sounds like you need a group chat that people are willing to talk in. If that isn’t happening, then there’s a barrier to doing it that you need to resolve. Could be they’re fine with you listening in, but not the manager. Could be something else. Fix that, and get back to productive remotely.

rtpg 2y ago

yeah, I meant "fun" perhaps in a more open sense of "people are not just annoyed at everything all the time", perhaps "relaxed" is the right word. I am not a superfan of actual closet office given, like, CO2 and friends, but having at least semi-closed spaces with some degree of privacy for groups of people feels totally reasonable. I always think about how some grad students at my university (paired 4 off to an office) had a nicer-feeling office space than any tech office I've been to short of a handful

borplk 2y ago

Yes and some people don't appreciate that some jobs really do require quiet focus for extended periods of time. Asking someone to be a programmer in a loud chaotic open office environment is not dissimilar to asking them to program while juggling two balls and sitting on a unicycle. Its just excess difficulty that doesn't need to be added on top of the jobs.

tayo42 2y ago
in hindsight its amazing anything actually ever got done
- sbrother 2y ago
  Realistically the actual work got done in the evening after going home.
  - hughesjj 2y ago
    Hell this is still the case for high meeting days
- steveBK123 2y ago
  My team is very small remote-primary, but we will travel to each others cities / offices quarterly or so. We have long since given up on getting any work done on our in-office days, but see them as collaborative / bonding / light planning only. It's gotten to the point that even if we fly to each others city for a week, we might only go to the office 2~3 days, or by Wednesday/Thursday we might by physically collocated but go to different rooms in silence with headphones to actually get work done. As a dev these days are actually pretty stressful as they have the feeling of creating work faster than doing any of it. It makes me remember how unproductive my dev teams used to be with the constant in-office interruptions. At prior jobs, I used to do most of my actual dev work after hours, and on unilaterally declared WFH days
bryanrasmussen 2y ago
I actually like that environment, unless I'm having problems debugging something. If something is not working after an hour or so I am on edge and need peace and quiet, but otherwise I can program fine for most tasks with noise around me.