6 ms·

It doesn't really matter because, as the dominant world power and arbiter of the world's currency, the US can invent legal grounds to do pretty much anything to

It doesn't really matter because, as the dominant world power and arbiter of the world's currency, the US can invent legal grounds to do pretty much anything to anyone. The US government is so powerful, they are the only country that enforces a draconian global taxation scheme on any citizen or person who has ever held a US green card, even after they permanently leave the country. The US treasury will withhold the ability to transact in US Dollars from any country that does not report the holdings of US-adjacent persons every single year. If you think you're out of reach of a country that treats their own citizens as criminals by default the minute they leave the country, I have some swamp land in Florida to sell you.

throwadobe 2y ago
> enforces a draconian global taxation scheme on any citizen or person who has ever held a US green card, even after they permanently leave. That's not quite true. If you _return_ your green card ("abandon it"), you no longer have to pay taxes. This makes sense as a parallel to being a US citizen, who would pay taxes even if they lived abroad. I'm not saying it's right, but we need to be accurate.
- Aspos 2y ago
  Even those who officially abandoned their green cards are subject to FATCA for life and often struggle to open bank accounts abroad.
  - gamblor956 2y ago
    That's false. FATCA only applies to American taxpayers like U.S. businesses[1], citizens, greencard holders, and other residents [2]. It does not apply to nonresident illegal aliens, former citizens, or nonresident former greencard holders. [1] In this context, including foreign businesses that file a U.S. tax return. [2] Note that for FATCA purposes, if a person is a US taxpayer for any portion of the year, they are subject to FATCA compliance purposes for that tax year no matter how much of that year was actually spent as a US taxpayer. However, if they are not a US taxpayer at the end of the year, they would not be subject to FATCA compliance for the following year.
    - Aspos 2y ago
      Yes, theoretically. Practically though when one applies to open an account they will be asked "do you have or have you ever had a US address or phone number? Have you ever had a greencard? Have you ever had SSN? Were you a subject to US taxation?" and single YES would lead to rejection. For banks which make a few bucks per year per customer dealing with anyone who remotely could be a subject to FATCA is just not worth it.
      - gamblor956 2y ago
        No, not theoretically. FATCA does not apply once you are no longer a US taxpayer. Moreover, the FATCA regime has been copied by so many other countries (including the EU) that there is now a global version of FATCA called CRS (and the procedural system for implementing CRS is known as AEOI). FATCA is now considered the least burdensome implementation of CRS, which has been implemented by all OECD countries, China, India, and Brazil. If a bank is turning you down because you answered "YES" to the FATCA question, the problem isn't FATCA. The bank is trying to avoid an audit and it's a huge red flag not to do business with them.
        pembrook 2y ago
        I'm sorry, it's not that simple. Banks are run by people and they are private businesses. Humans don't follow laws like computers follow instruction, we are flawed creatures. Businesses will mitigate risks wherever possible, and refuse to work with customers who carry added risk all the time. While in theory this shouldn't be causing people trouble and preventing people from getting locked out of the banking system or forcing them into unfair agreements, in reality, it is. It turns out government regulation has unintended consequences. Just because it's "wrong" for them to interpret the regulation in this way, doesn't change the fact that many many established, legitimate banks are doing it "wrong." Nor does it help the people suffering the consequences to point your finger back at the wording of the regulation and say "Ackshually..."
        gamblor956 2y ago
afh1 2y ago
>The US government is so powerful [...] can invent legal grounds to do pretty much anything to anyone Sounds like what a totalitarian king would do. "In vain they change from a single person to a few. These few have the passions of the one; and they unite to strengthen themselves, and to secure the gratification of their lawless passions at the expense of the general good. In vain do we fly to the many. The case is worse; their passions are less under the government of reason, they are augmented by the contagion, and defended against all attacks by their multitude." - Edmund Burke, 1756.
umvi 2y ago
USA can't tax non-citizens. Revoke citizenship if you really don't want to pay. That comes with a lot of downsides though (no more US passport, no getting rescued by the US if you wander into North Korea, etc), which implies the taxes aren't for nothing just because you live out-of-country.
- ghnws 2y ago
  Pretty far fetched benefits
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- jedilord 2y ago
  [dead]
- csdreamer7 2y ago
  > USA can't tax non-citizens. Revoke citizenship if you really don't want to pay. That comes with a lot of downsides though (no more US passport, no getting rescued by the US if you wander into North Korea, etc), which implies the taxes aren't for nothing just because you live out-of-country. The USA can, and does, tax non-citizens. Many countries tax non-citizens. Go out and buy a foreign stock-they will tax you on earnings or dividends. Go visit a country and pay the local sales tax.
  - achierius 2y ago
    What he meant was that the USA can't levy income tax on non-citizens living in other countries.
    - pembrook 2y ago
      You may be surprised to learn the huge role that US federal reserve policy plays in messing with the fortunes of many countries around the world. It's quite easy to argue that handing over such power to a single government is in fact a large tax on every non-US citizen.
pgraf 2y ago
> The US government is so powerful, they are the only country that enforces a draconian global taxation scheme on any citizen or person who has ever held a US green card […] While it may be true that they are the only ones able to do it effectively, there are some other countries with citizenship-based taxation. According to Wikipedia[0] these currently are: Hungary, Eritrea, Myanmar and Tajikistan Some other countries have similar policies for tax heavens. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_taxation#Citizenship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_taxation#Citizen...
- pembrook 2y ago
  There's not a bank on earth (that isn't headquarted in said countries) that is voluntarily sharing information with Eritrea, Myanmar, etc. I'm going to venture a wild guess: it may not be that difficult to hide assets from the short arms of the Tajikistani tax office. So I don't think it's crazy to assume Americans are the only ones suffering under this policy in practice.
laurensr 2y ago
And then there is FATCA and CRS : when opening a bank account for my non-profit I had to answer 15 pages of questions related to me, other directors and the non-profit itself. I'm a non-US citizen outside of the US.

throwadobe 2y ago

> enforces a draconian global taxation scheme on any citizen or person who has ever held a US green card, even after they permanently leave. That's not quite true. If you _return_ your green card ("abandon it"), you no longer have to pay taxes. This makes sense as a parallel to being a US citizen, who would pay taxes even if they lived abroad. I'm not saying it's right, but we need to be accurate.

Aspos 2y ago
Even those who officially abandoned their green cards are subject to FATCA for life and often struggle to open bank accounts abroad.
- gamblor956 2y ago
  That's false. FATCA only applies to American taxpayers like U.S. businesses[1], citizens, greencard holders, and other residents [2]. It does not apply to nonresident illegal aliens, former citizens, or nonresident former greencard holders. [1] In this context, including foreign businesses that file a U.S. tax return. [2] Note that for FATCA purposes, if a person is a US taxpayer for any portion of the year, they are subject to FATCA compliance purposes for that tax year no matter how much of that year was actually spent as a US taxpayer. However, if they are not a US taxpayer at the end of the year, they would not be subject to FATCA compliance for the following year.
  - Aspos 2y ago
    Yes, theoretically. Practically though when one applies to open an account they will be asked "do you have or have you ever had a US address or phone number? Have you ever had a greencard? Have you ever had SSN? Were you a subject to US taxation?" and single YES would lead to rejection. For banks which make a few bucks per year per customer dealing with anyone who remotely could be a subject to FATCA is just not worth it.
    - gamblor956 2y ago
      No, not theoretically. FATCA does not apply once you are no longer a US taxpayer. Moreover, the FATCA regime has been copied by so many other countries (including the EU) that there is now a global version of FATCA called CRS (and the procedural system for implementing CRS is known as AEOI). FATCA is now considered the least burdensome implementation of CRS, which has been implemented by all OECD countries, China, India, and Brazil. If a bank is turning you down because you answered "YES" to the FATCA question, the problem isn't FATCA. The bank is trying to avoid an audit and it's a huge red flag not to do business with them.
      - pembrook 2y ago
        I'm sorry, it's not that simple. Banks are run by people and they are private businesses. Humans don't follow laws like computers follow instruction, we are flawed creatures. Businesses will mitigate risks wherever possible, and refuse to work with customers who carry added risk all the time. While in theory this shouldn't be causing people trouble and preventing people from getting locked out of the banking system or forcing them into unfair agreements, in reality, it is. It turns out government regulation has unintended consequences. Just because it's "wrong" for them to interpret the regulation in this way, doesn't change the fact that many many established, legitimate banks are doing it "wrong." Nor does it help the people suffering the consequences to point your finger back at the wording of the regulation and say "Ackshually..."
        gamblor956 2y ago

afh1 2y ago

>The US government is so powerful [...] can invent legal grounds to do pretty much anything to anyone Sounds like what a totalitarian king would do. "In vain they change from a single person to a few. These few have the passions of the one; and they unite to strengthen themselves, and to secure the gratification of their lawless passions at the expense of the general good. In vain do we fly to the many. The case is worse; their passions are less under the government of reason, they are augmented by the contagion, and defended against all attacks by their multitude." - Edmund Burke, 1756.

umvi 2y ago

USA can't tax non-citizens. Revoke citizenship if you really don't want to pay. That comes with a lot of downsides though (no more US passport, no getting rescued by the US if you wander into North Korea, etc), which implies the taxes aren't for nothing just because you live out-of-country.

ghnws 2y ago
Pretty far fetched benefits
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
jedilord 2y ago
[dead]
csdreamer7 2y ago
> USA can't tax non-citizens. Revoke citizenship if you really don't want to pay. That comes with a lot of downsides though (no more US passport, no getting rescued by the US if you wander into North Korea, etc), which implies the taxes aren't for nothing just because you live out-of-country. The USA can, and does, tax non-citizens. Many countries tax non-citizens. Go out and buy a foreign stock-they will tax you on earnings or dividends. Go visit a country and pay the local sales tax.
- achierius 2y ago
  What he meant was that the USA can't levy income tax on non-citizens living in other countries.
  - pembrook 2y ago
    You may be surprised to learn the huge role that US federal reserve policy plays in messing with the fortunes of many countries around the world. It's quite easy to argue that handing over such power to a single government is in fact a large tax on every non-US citizen.

pgraf 2y ago

> The US government is so powerful, they are the only country that enforces a draconian global taxation scheme on any citizen or person who has ever held a US green card […] While it may be true that they are the only ones able to do it effectively, there are some other countries with citizenship-based taxation. According to Wikipedia[0] these currently are: Hungary, Eritrea, Myanmar and Tajikistan Some other countries have similar policies for tax heavens. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_taxation#Citizenship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_taxation#Citizen...

pembrook 2y ago
There's not a bank on earth (that isn't headquarted in said countries) that is voluntarily sharing information with Eritrea, Myanmar, etc. I'm going to venture a wild guess: it may not be that difficult to hide assets from the short arms of the Tajikistani tax office. So I don't think it's crazy to assume Americans are the only ones suffering under this policy in practice.

laurensr 2y ago

And then there is FATCA and CRS : when opening a bank account for my non-profit I had to answer 15 pages of questions related to me, other directors and the non-profit itself. I'm a non-US citizen outside of the US.