6 ms·

Reticulum is incredibly versatile and has an entire ecosystem of tools under development. NomadNet is just one of the messengers. There is Sideband, a mobile ap

Reticulum is incredibly versatile and has an entire ecosystem of tools under development. NomadNet is just one of the messengers. There is Sideband, a mobile app client (https://github.com/markqvist/Sideband https://github.com/markqvist/Sideband), and Reticulum MeshChat, developed by Liam Cottle which is a browser based client https://github.com/liamcottle/reticulum-meshchat https://github.com/liamcottle/reticulum-meshchat. Reticulum can work over anything that has a throughput greater than 5 bits a second (yes, bits) and a MDU of 500 bytes. Not only can it work over hundreds of different carriers (LoRa, BLE, Packet Radio, overlay networks like Tor and I2P) but each of these carriers can be apart of the same network. I threw together a quick proof of concept of it working over HF radio. I setup two nodes about 144 km (90 miles) separate. Both were ICOM-7300's with a Raspberry Pi 5 driving the software modem that would take packets from Reticulum and send them over the air. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blwNVumLujc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blwNVumLujc Node 1 was out in the field while Node 2 was back at my house. Node 2 had two interfaces setup, one for the HF modem and another connected to the TCP testnet. This means that Node 1 could access any peer that was over on the TCP testnet. Here is a quick primer on Reticulum that explains some of the basic concepts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8ltLt5SK6A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8ltLt5SK6A

kragen 2y ago
is there maybe an explanation of how the network works that isn't a video? is chapter 4 of the manual the best explanation? i admit i'm spoiled by the great explanations provided by academic projects, and i don't know where to look for, say, how it defends against traffic analysis attacks to statistically deanonymize speakers, or whether that's outside of its threat model if it were a mechanical device or a graphics rendering algorithm i would think a video would be better, but it's a peer-to-peer networking protocol, and the video just looks like distracting eye candy
- nexus_six 2y ago
  It's meant to just be a quick explanation of some of the very basic concepts. But if you want to understand the network stack in-depth the manual is the best resource: https://reticulum.network/manual/index.html https://reticulum.network/manual/index.html
  - generalizations 2y ago
    Is there a more formal description of the algorithm? I'd be interested in understanding not the implementation, but how the algo has been constructed, to understand its strengths and weaknesses.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- franek 2y ago
  > chapter 4 of the manual To me that chapter ("Understanding Reticulum") was a very pleasant read a few weeks ago, and inspiring too. I would love to get some HN expert opinions on it, especially about routing, so I posted it separately: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41257619 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41257619
cyberax 2y ago
How does Reticulum solve the fundamental issue of mesh networks: either you have to have a central controlling authority for addressing, or an adversary can just flood your network? Does it have some kind of blockchain crap tie-in?
- dicknuckle 2y ago
  blockchain can be cheap (power, compute etc) and not crap. Doesn't mean every project that builds with it takes that into consideration.
  - cyberax 2y ago
    > blockchain can be cheap (power, compute etc) and not crap. No. All blockchain is crap, no exceptions are fundamentally possible. The reality reflects that rather starkly. By "blockchain" I mean a system with a distributed consesus via proof-of-work or proof-of-stake.
    - __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
      So it stops being a blockchain if the criteria for adding a block is based on something else? Or do you intend to update your definition to incorporate other consensus mechanisms as they emerge? Seems to me that a more useful definition would abstract out the consensus model such that a blockchain is essentially a merkle-linked-list together with some function for determining which of two candidate next-blocks will be the actual one, but without getting too specific for what that function is... just because there's so much potential for variation there.
      - jazzyjackson 2y ago
        > just because there's so much potential for variation there. There really isn't. Either you expend some resource to make it expensive to attack or you stake some resource so you have something to lose to prove you're not a bad actor. I've never seen anything more creative than this.
bigallen 2y ago
Are you in USA? I'm seeing words like "private" and "cryptographic" in the github. What's the interaction with ham radio rules about no encryption?
- jvanderbot 2y ago
  Lora and wifi are not ham radio networks. I imagine that kind of multi-channel use is just fine.
  - linsomniac 2y ago
    I believe the question you are replying to is directly in response to: >I threw together a quick proof of concept of it working over HF radio Which I assume was amateur band rather than commercial (in the 3-30MHz range). I don't believe LoRa and WiFi operate in that band.
    - jvanderbot 2y ago
      Correct: I misread the thread. Thanks!
- exe34 2y ago
  would you be able to transmit under the noisefloor and integrate on the other side? i imagine it would still break the law, but you wouldn't be likely to get caught?
  - Dylan16807 2y ago
    Under the noise floor at what distance? If you don't want to be a bright beacon at a mile, then you're not going to have a lot of signal at a hundred miles.
    - exe34 2y ago
      yeah occurred to me a while after posting :-D
franek 2y ago
Does Reticulum routing always prefer the path with the fewest hops, even if a path with more hops might have higher throughput or lower latency? That's how I understand the manual (https://reticulum.network/manual/understanding.html https://reticulum.network/manual/understanding.html): > Once an announce has reached a node in the network, any other node in direct contact with that node will be able to reach the destination the announce originated from, simply by sending a packet addressed to that destination. Any node with knowledge of the announce will be able to direct the packet towards the destination by looking up the next node with the shortest amount of hops to the destination.
- LinuxinaBIt 2y ago
  I like the way you’re thinking but it doesn’t necessarily work like that in practice. Why? Because of how announce queues work, each interface has its own queue, and announces are limited very specifically to 2% of a channel’s bandwidth. This means that announces are much more likely to be transferred over the faster medium first, resulting in paths that are on average the most reasonable balance between speed and distance. If that doesn’t make sense at first, I get it. I find trying to visualize how it works really helps. Reticulum is conceptually so different from anything else out there that it takes a while to understand. See http://reticulum.network/manual/understanding.html#the-announce-mechanism-in-detail http://reticulum.network/manual/understanding.html#the-annou... for more details.
  - franek 2y ago
    That does make a lot of sense, at least in terms of latency: I imagine that when a one-hop announce comes back from outer space, the faster multi-hop path across town will have already been established. For bandwidth, however, I don't see it yet. If all relevant nodes are idle at the time an announce comes in (so the 2% limit doesn't come into effect), a low-bandwith route might be established before one with a much higher bandwidth, no? (Prioritising latency over bandwidth can be the right thing to do, of course, depending on what the network is used for. But it might not.)
    - 2y ago
Aerbil313 2y ago
Why is the lower limit on bps? If there is interference for 5 seconds and my hardware can't get signal, will it drop the packet? Ideally it wouldn't.
- 392 2y ago
  You'd better go read the spec. And this: https://chsasank.com/classic_papers/end-to-end-system-design.html https://chsasank.com/classic_papers/end-to-end-system-design...

kragen 2y ago

is there maybe an explanation of how the network works that isn't a video? is chapter 4 of the manual the best explanation? i admit i'm spoiled by the great explanations provided by academic projects, and i don't know where to look for, say, how it defends against traffic analysis attacks to statistically deanonymize speakers, or whether that's outside of its threat model if it were a mechanical device or a graphics rendering algorithm i would think a video would be better, but it's a peer-to-peer networking protocol, and the video just looks like distracting eye candy

nexus_six 2y ago
It's meant to just be a quick explanation of some of the very basic concepts. But if you want to understand the network stack in-depth the manual is the best resource: https://reticulum.network/manual/index.html https://reticulum.network/manual/index.html
- generalizations 2y ago
  Is there a more formal description of the algorithm? I'd be interested in understanding not the implementation, but how the algo has been constructed, to understand its strengths and weaknesses.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
franek 2y ago
> chapter 4 of the manual To me that chapter ("Understanding Reticulum") was a very pleasant read a few weeks ago, and inspiring too. I would love to get some HN expert opinions on it, especially about routing, so I posted it separately: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41257619 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41257619

cyberax 2y ago

How does Reticulum solve the fundamental issue of mesh networks: either you have to have a central controlling authority for addressing, or an adversary can just flood your network? Does it have some kind of blockchain crap tie-in?

dicknuckle 2y ago
blockchain can be cheap (power, compute etc) and not crap. Doesn't mean every project that builds with it takes that into consideration.
- cyberax 2y ago
  > blockchain can be cheap (power, compute etc) and not crap. No. All blockchain is crap, no exceptions are fundamentally possible. The reality reflects that rather starkly. By "blockchain" I mean a system with a distributed consesus via proof-of-work or proof-of-stake.
  - __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
    So it stops being a blockchain if the criteria for adding a block is based on something else? Or do you intend to update your definition to incorporate other consensus mechanisms as they emerge? Seems to me that a more useful definition would abstract out the consensus model such that a blockchain is essentially a merkle-linked-list together with some function for determining which of two candidate next-blocks will be the actual one, but without getting too specific for what that function is... just because there's so much potential for variation there.
    - jazzyjackson 2y ago
      > just because there's so much potential for variation there. There really isn't. Either you expend some resource to make it expensive to attack or you stake some resource so you have something to lose to prove you're not a bad actor. I've never seen anything more creative than this.

bigallen 2y ago

Are you in USA? I'm seeing words like "private" and "cryptographic" in the github. What's the interaction with ham radio rules about no encryption?

jvanderbot 2y ago
Lora and wifi are not ham radio networks. I imagine that kind of multi-channel use is just fine.
- linsomniac 2y ago
  I believe the question you are replying to is directly in response to: >I threw together a quick proof of concept of it working over HF radio Which I assume was amateur band rather than commercial (in the 3-30MHz range). I don't believe LoRa and WiFi operate in that band.
  - jvanderbot 2y ago
    Correct: I misread the thread. Thanks!
exe34 2y ago
would you be able to transmit under the noisefloor and integrate on the other side? i imagine it would still break the law, but you wouldn't be likely to get caught?
- Dylan16807 2y ago
  Under the noise floor at what distance? If you don't want to be a bright beacon at a mile, then you're not going to have a lot of signal at a hundred miles.
  - exe34 2y ago
    yeah occurred to me a while after posting :-D

franek 2y ago

Does Reticulum routing always prefer the path with the fewest hops, even if a path with more hops might have higher throughput or lower latency? That's how I understand the manual (https://reticulum.network/manual/understanding.html https://reticulum.network/manual/understanding.html): > Once an announce has reached a node in the network, any other node in direct contact with that node will be able to reach the destination the announce originated from, simply by sending a packet addressed to that destination. Any node with knowledge of the announce will be able to direct the packet towards the destination by looking up the next node with the shortest amount of hops to the destination.

LinuxinaBIt 2y ago
I like the way you’re thinking but it doesn’t necessarily work like that in practice. Why? Because of how announce queues work, each interface has its own queue, and announces are limited very specifically to 2% of a channel’s bandwidth. This means that announces are much more likely to be transferred over the faster medium first, resulting in paths that are on average the most reasonable balance between speed and distance. If that doesn’t make sense at first, I get it. I find trying to visualize how it works really helps. Reticulum is conceptually so different from anything else out there that it takes a while to understand. See http://reticulum.network/manual/understanding.html#the-announce-mechanism-in-detail http://reticulum.network/manual/understanding.html#the-annou... for more details.
- franek 2y ago
  That does make a lot of sense, at least in terms of latency: I imagine that when a one-hop announce comes back from outer space, the faster multi-hop path across town will have already been established. For bandwidth, however, I don't see it yet. If all relevant nodes are idle at the time an announce comes in (so the 2% limit doesn't come into effect), a low-bandwith route might be established before one with a much higher bandwidth, no? (Prioritising latency over bandwidth can be the right thing to do, of course, depending on what the network is used for. But it might not.)
  - 2y ago

Aerbil313 2y ago

Why is the lower limit on bps? If there is interference for 5 seconds and my hardware can't get signal, will it drop the packet? Ideally it wouldn't.

392 2y ago
You'd better go read the spec. And this: https://chsasank.com/classic_papers/end-to-end-system-design.html https://chsasank.com/classic_papers/end-to-end-system-design...