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> There has been nothing in my life so disillusioning as working on a Web app for a company that is more or less required to play Google's game. Have you built

by timmg 2y ago

> There has been nothing in my life so disillusioning as working on a Web app for a company that is more or less required to play Google's game. Have you built any iOS apps?

LeonB 2y ago
Ha, well said. Having both of these experiences makes one even more against the tyranny of monopolists.
brookst 2y ago
While true and a fair point, iOS is Apple’s platform in a way that the web is most certainly not Google’s.
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  I hardly use Google, and I use the internet. DDG/Kagi/ChatGPT/Reddit/HN/etc for searching. Fastmail/myriad order email providers. Openstreetmap/Apple for maps. YouTube and Chrome Remote Desktop are what I use Google for, but those have alternatives too.
  - jonhohle 2y ago
    The concern is if you are developing for the web, how much time do you need to spend appeasing Google to show up in search results and be discoverable. When I was at Amazon the majority of direct product traffic did not come internal search, it came from Google. In some areas they were competitors, Amazon was beholden to Google as the starting point for most customer’s browsing experience.
  - EasyMark 2y ago
    It’s not just monopoly it’s googles abuse. How many times have they been sued successfully and fined by the government for abusing the position as a large corporation, I’d say it’s legion. I wish the government was more vigilant in using their power to kill corporations outright after so many abuses of power
- jonhohle 2y ago
  It’s odd how this is lost on people. Want to develop a game for PlayStation, Sony will need to approve. Want to develop a Facebook app, FB will gatekeep. If you wanted to make apps for the Danger Hiptop, you published through Danger. iOS is Apple’s consolized OS for their own hardware. It’s not a PC platform that anyone can put on whatever device they want. For better or worse.
  - Workaccount2 2y ago
    I think there is a reasonable breaking point though, where the platform becomes so ingrained in society that you are left out of social groups if you don't join. "iPhone Families" is a very real thing that Apple has gone out of it's way to solidify. Or try being an (American) 15 year old kid and get included in group chats with an android phone. It's pretty gross when a mega-corp is so powerful that it can leverage your friends and family against you, forcing you into their walled prison err.. garden.
    - consteval 2y ago
      Personally, I think the breaking point is when the device transitions from "appliance" or niche device to general computer. I think at a time a phone could be considered an appliance. But that's changed, and for many people their smartphone is their only general personal computer.
  - CivBase 2y ago
    When you're a part of a duopoly on a product that is necessary for participating in the modern economy with as much friction as iOS has for switching to the only viable competitor... what makes it so fundamentally different from the web? IMO they can either keep the duopoly and deal with regulation or they can keep full control of their platform. One or the other. Same goes for Android.
    - jonhohle 2y ago
      So if a business mode is successful, regardless of whether it’s actively thwarted competition or acted anticompetitively, it should be regulated? It’s not the web. It’s not a PC. It’s a sandboxed console. > MO they can either keep the duopoly and deal with regulation or they can keep full control of their platform. Then they’ll keep they’re platform and not be regulated ;-) (I know what you meant).
- isodev 2y ago
  Just following this thought then the remedy will be forcing Apple to allow alternative OS and firmware on their devices, allowing consumers to choose what they do with the device hardware they purchased?
  - ineedaj0b 2y ago
    No, it would be buying an android phone
    - isodev 2y ago
      Buying a phone from another vendor is only viable if Apple/Google didn't try to lock you in. Of course we know that's not true - you can't just go elsewhere and that's by design.
  - mouse_ 2y ago
    Ownership and security are at odds. The only remedy would be forcing Apple to allow the owner of the device to run whatever they would like on it, unfortunately this does include malware.
    - nolist_policy 2y ago
      This is a false dilemma thought. The secure solution is to treat every app as malicious and put it in a sandbox where it can not cause harm. See also Android and ChromeOS.
      - CamperBob2 2y ago
        In the broadest sense, an app that "can not cause harm" can't do anything useful. To the industry's dominant players, "causing harm" means empowering the user to venture outside their walled gardens... or even to see outside them. So, no, sandboxing everything in sight isn't a useful solution. Your sandbox will just imprison us all.
  - brookst 2y ago
    I’m not a subscriber to the “if I choose to buy a product, I get to dictate product design decisions for the company” school of thought. Buy it or don’t. If you want X there is no right do demand Y turn into X.
- chipdart 2y ago
  > While true and a fair point, iOS is Apple’s platform in a way that the web is most certainly not Google’s. OP was whining over Google's role in Android. Pointing out Apple's control of iOS, and the fact that iPhone is by far the dominant platform for handhelds, does refute OP's personal assertion.

by timmg 2y ago

> There has been nothing in my life so disillusioning as working on a Web app for a company that is more or less required to play Google's game. Have you built any iOS apps?

LeonB 2y ago

Ha, well said. Having both of these experiences makes one even more against the tyranny of monopolists.

brookst 2y ago

While true and a fair point, iOS is Apple’s platform in a way that the web is most certainly not Google’s.

lotsofpulp 2y ago
I hardly use Google, and I use the internet. DDG/Kagi/ChatGPT/Reddit/HN/etc for searching. Fastmail/myriad order email providers. Openstreetmap/Apple for maps. YouTube and Chrome Remote Desktop are what I use Google for, but those have alternatives too.
- jonhohle 2y ago
  The concern is if you are developing for the web, how much time do you need to spend appeasing Google to show up in search results and be discoverable. When I was at Amazon the majority of direct product traffic did not come internal search, it came from Google. In some areas they were competitors, Amazon was beholden to Google as the starting point for most customer’s browsing experience.
- EasyMark 2y ago
  It’s not just monopoly it’s googles abuse. How many times have they been sued successfully and fined by the government for abusing the position as a large corporation, I’d say it’s legion. I wish the government was more vigilant in using their power to kill corporations outright after so many abuses of power
jonhohle 2y ago
It’s odd how this is lost on people. Want to develop a game for PlayStation, Sony will need to approve. Want to develop a Facebook app, FB will gatekeep. If you wanted to make apps for the Danger Hiptop, you published through Danger. iOS is Apple’s consolized OS for their own hardware. It’s not a PC platform that anyone can put on whatever device they want. For better or worse.
- Workaccount2 2y ago
  I think there is a reasonable breaking point though, where the platform becomes so ingrained in society that you are left out of social groups if you don't join. "iPhone Families" is a very real thing that Apple has gone out of it's way to solidify. Or try being an (American) 15 year old kid and get included in group chats with an android phone. It's pretty gross when a mega-corp is so powerful that it can leverage your friends and family against you, forcing you into their walled prison err.. garden.
  - consteval 2y ago
    Personally, I think the breaking point is when the device transitions from "appliance" or niche device to general computer. I think at a time a phone could be considered an appliance. But that's changed, and for many people their smartphone is their only general personal computer.
- CivBase 2y ago
  When you're a part of a duopoly on a product that is necessary for participating in the modern economy with as much friction as iOS has for switching to the only viable competitor... what makes it so fundamentally different from the web? IMO they can either keep the duopoly and deal with regulation or they can keep full control of their platform. One or the other. Same goes for Android.
  - jonhohle 2y ago
    So if a business mode is successful, regardless of whether it’s actively thwarted competition or acted anticompetitively, it should be regulated? It’s not the web. It’s not a PC. It’s a sandboxed console. > MO they can either keep the duopoly and deal with regulation or they can keep full control of their platform. Then they’ll keep they’re platform and not be regulated ;-) (I know what you meant).
isodev 2y ago
Just following this thought then the remedy will be forcing Apple to allow alternative OS and firmware on their devices, allowing consumers to choose what they do with the device hardware they purchased?
- ineedaj0b 2y ago
  No, it would be buying an android phone
  - isodev 2y ago
    Buying a phone from another vendor is only viable if Apple/Google didn't try to lock you in. Of course we know that's not true - you can't just go elsewhere and that's by design.
- mouse_ 2y ago
  Ownership and security are at odds. The only remedy would be forcing Apple to allow the owner of the device to run whatever they would like on it, unfortunately this does include malware.
  - nolist_policy 2y ago
    This is a false dilemma thought. The secure solution is to treat every app as malicious and put it in a sandbox where it can not cause harm. See also Android and ChromeOS.
    - CamperBob2 2y ago
      In the broadest sense, an app that "can not cause harm" can't do anything useful. To the industry's dominant players, "causing harm" means empowering the user to venture outside their walled gardens... or even to see outside them. So, no, sandboxing everything in sight isn't a useful solution. Your sandbox will just imprison us all.
- brookst 2y ago
  I’m not a subscriber to the “if I choose to buy a product, I get to dictate product design decisions for the company” school of thought. Buy it or don’t. If you want X there is no right do demand Y turn into X.
chipdart 2y ago
> While true and a fair point, iOS is Apple’s platform in a way that the web is most certainly not Google’s. OP was whining over Google's role in Android. Pointing out Apple's control of iOS, and the fact that iPhone is by far the dominant platform for handhelds, does refute OP's personal assertion.