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I think by now the concept of a vulnerability in voting systems has become too partisan in the US for anyone to ever address it. I really wish states everywher

I think by now the concept of a vulnerability in voting systems has become too partisan in the US for anyone to ever address it. I really wish states everywhere just banned electronic voting. The savings simply aren't worth the loss of trust and verifiability. (See also, Venezuela's recent election.)

nebula8804 2y ago
>I really wish states everywhere just banned electronic voting. The savings simply aren't worth the loss of trust and verifiability. But the public demands same day results. How are you going to overcome this issue?
- Vecr 2y ago
  The UK's really fast at counting. Or isn't the result on January 20 more important anyway? Change the norm.
  - nebula8804 2y ago
    Population 66 Million vs 333 million spread across 6 time zones(if you include Hawaii and Alaska).
    - sfn42 2y ago
      Man you Americans really suck at math don't you? It's always "but our big population", somehow that's the excuse for everything. Shitty prison system - big population, shitty healthcare system - big population, shitty education - big population, shitty voting system - big population. Meanwhile I've never seen anyone explain why these things can't scale. You have more people so you have more votes but you also have more people to count them. Okay so there's a few different time zones so what? That's an easily solvable problem.
      - nebula8804 2y ago
        >Man you Americans really suck at math don't you? It's always "but our big population", somehow that's the excuse for everything. Shitty prison system - big population, shitty healthcare system - big population, shitty education - big population, shitty voting system - big population. What an ignorant take. It would help for you to expand your horizons and realize that other countries have reasons for doing the things they do. The world is not one size fits all. >Meanwhile I've never seen anyone explain why these things can't scale. You have more people so you have more votes but you also have more people to count them. Okay so there's a few different time zones so what? That's an easily solvable problem. Don't cite me then, cite an acclaimed election security researcher: https://youtu.be/U-184ssFce4?t=1578 https://youtu.be/U-184ssFce4?t=1578
        Gud 2y ago
        > What an ignorant take. It would help for you to expand your horizons and realize that other countries have reasons for doing the things they do. The world is not one size fits all. From what it looks like across the pond, when it comes to American politics(and anything adjacent) the answer is almost always "greed".
- agubelu 2y ago
  We use traditional paper ballots in Spain, and we have the full results within 2-3h of polls closing. The trick is using a distributed system. Each ballot box is opened, counted and tallied at the same time. The results (along with the votes themselves for posterior re-counting if needed) are sent to local electoral authorities who input the updates into a central system in real time. It essentially takes as long as it takes to count the fullest ballot boxes in big cities. Funny that you mentioned speed as an argument for electronic voting, though. I never understood how the US uses it, yet it takes them days to get the full results.
  - nebula8804 2y ago
    >We use traditional paper ballots in Spain, and we have the full results within 2-3h of polls closing. Thats great for a country of 44 million, not so great with a country the population of 333 million spread across multiple time zones. >The trick is using a distributed system. Each ballot box is opened, counted and tallied at the same time. The results (along with the votes themselves for posterior re-counting if needed) are sent to local electoral authorities who input the updates into a central system in real time. It essentially takes as long as it takes to count the fullest ballot boxes in big cities. Lets set aside the issues involved with transmitting data electronically (sounds like just a distributed electronic system). Each state in the US runs its own election process and has its own budget. You would have numerous problems implementing this system across a country with 4 primary time zones(lets ignore the lone two states with separate time zones for now). >Funny that you mentioned speed as an argument for electronic voting, though. I never understood how the US uses it, yet it takes them days to get the full results. What are you talking about? The last several elections were typically decided within 12-24 hrs of the polls closing on the east coast. Where are you getting your "days" from? Maybe you are just reading Spanish news that is days behind in covering American news?
    - throwawayffffas 2y ago
      Simple math tells you just need 10ish times the people counting. > The last several elections were typically decided within 12-24 hrs of the polls closing on the east coast. Where are you getting your "days" from? Arizona was still counting 3 or 4 days later. Also 24 hours is a day.
- jazzyjackson 2y ago
  I don't really think the public demands it, it's just the newscasters that race with each other to arrive at a statistically strong enough projection to "call it" eg "Dewey Defeats Truman"
  - nebula8804 2y ago
    You are referencing an event that happened 76 years ago. Its pretty clear that at this point the public is used to and expects quick results.
    - jazzyjackson 2y ago
      And Dewey conceded the morning after the election then, is that not a quick result? My point is we don't need computers to tally votes and the only people actually vested in knowing who wins within hours of polls closing is the people selling papers.
- ErikBjare 2y ago
  Same as every other country that uses paper ballots and gets same day results?
  - nebula8804 2y ago
    How many of those have a population of 333 million?
    - chpatrick 2y ago
      The EU (449 million)?
      - jewelry 2y ago
        But EU election is not as consequential as national election in the individual states of EU, right?
        chpatrick 2y ago
        The point was whether it's possible at such a large scale.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - PoignardAzur 2y ago
      Counting methods that work for a population of 60 millions will work for a population of 300 millions. It's not like counting votes is a O(N²) problem.
      - nebula8804 2y ago
        When you have ballots that have multiple questions on it and different amounts for each state, it scales linearly. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-184ssFce4&t=1578s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-184ssFce4&t=1578s
- amy-petrik-214 2y ago
  Does the public demand same day results? If we're tapped into the psyche of the public and able to channel the public's collective mind, the public also demands unhackable results, so there's that. You can't hack an paper. The public also demands that people stop declaring what it does and does not demand. I personally think the way to deal with this hacker that goes by the handle DEFCON who is coming for the elections is to bring in an even more powerful hacker, yes, I speak of the hacker known as "4chan"
  - nebula8804 2y ago
    >Does the public demand same day results? If we're tapped into the psyche of the public and able to channel the public's collective mind, the public also demands unhackable results, so there's that. Well clearly they don't since there hasn't been any urgency in this issue. But despite the fact that you are operating in a bubble and there is only a small cadre of activists many states have in fact changed course and have moved to a compromise: DRE with Paper audit. Is this enough? Well probably not, they should add risk limiting audits as well. >You can't hack an paper. The public also demands that people stop declaring what it does and does not demand. Well a slow paper count can potentially call into question the validity of an election when you are in a political environment where there is loss of trust (whether real or imagined). [1]:https://apnews.com/article/2022-midterm-elections-arizona-ballot-counting-d9425f8f9b0b0ea203c6453cac860016 https://apnews.com/article/2022-midterm-elections-arizona-ba... "There were some Republican activists in Arizona who advocated that voters intentionally wait until Election Day itself to drop off their ballots. Some of this push was based on unfounded theories that fraudsters could manipulate voting systems and rig results for Democrats, once they had seen how many GOP votes had been returned early. Experts had also warned that such a last-minute crush of ballots could end up creating delays that can ultimately be used by a bad actor to undermine confidence in the election. But there were indications that many GOP voters had heeded that call — the volume of mail-in ballots dropped off on Election Day far surpassed previous years in some counties — which Lake and other Republicans saw as reason to be confident the later ballots would break their way." >I personally think the way to deal with this hacker that goes by the handle DEFCON who is coming for the elections is to bring in an even more powerful hacker, yes, I speak of the hacker known as "4chan" Honestly sounds like you spend too much time online. Even election security advocates cite the reason for DRE is due to the difficulty in counting ballots in an efficient manner: [1]: https://youtu.be/U-184ssFce4?t=1578 https://youtu.be/U-184ssFce4?t=1578
- willcipriano 2y ago
  This is a solved problem, in the third world, in the 80's. Then the knowledge was lost to man somehow. I really pitty you if you belive this.
- Pyrodogg 2y ago
  "same day 100% done" is just not possible unless things like mail-in deadlines are shifted to be "received by" instead of "post marked by" the election day. If people want same day results, it's a heavier process change than "count faster". With the current rules trying to cut it off in mere hours is disenfranchising valid voters.
- 7bit 2y ago
  > But the public demands same day results. How are you going to overcome this issue? This is suggestive reasoning. If you're going down that path, please provide a source for your claim, that the public demands results on the same day.
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  Who is actually demanding same day results? With mail in ballots being more common these days, it’s not really possible anyways (in a close race that can’t be called early). I would be okay with having a one month waiting period if needed. And with multiple days of actual voting at booths to accommodate people’s personal lives.
hammock 2y ago
> vulnerability in voting systems has become too partisan in the US for anyone to ever address it It's pretty uniformly bipartisan, just on an alternating 4-year schedule somehow

nebula8804 2y ago

>I really wish states everywhere just banned electronic voting. The savings simply aren't worth the loss of trust and verifiability. But the public demands same day results. How are you going to overcome this issue?

Vecr 2y ago
The UK's really fast at counting. Or isn't the result on January 20 more important anyway? Change the norm.
- nebula8804 2y ago
  Population 66 Million vs 333 million spread across 6 time zones(if you include Hawaii and Alaska).
  - sfn42 2y ago
    Man you Americans really suck at math don't you? It's always "but our big population", somehow that's the excuse for everything. Shitty prison system - big population, shitty healthcare system - big population, shitty education - big population, shitty voting system - big population. Meanwhile I've never seen anyone explain why these things can't scale. You have more people so you have more votes but you also have more people to count them. Okay so there's a few different time zones so what? That's an easily solvable problem.
    - nebula8804 2y ago
      >Man you Americans really suck at math don't you? It's always "but our big population", somehow that's the excuse for everything. Shitty prison system - big population, shitty healthcare system - big population, shitty education - big population, shitty voting system - big population. What an ignorant take. It would help for you to expand your horizons and realize that other countries have reasons for doing the things they do. The world is not one size fits all. >Meanwhile I've never seen anyone explain why these things can't scale. You have more people so you have more votes but you also have more people to count them. Okay so there's a few different time zones so what? That's an easily solvable problem. Don't cite me then, cite an acclaimed election security researcher: https://youtu.be/U-184ssFce4?t=1578 https://youtu.be/U-184ssFce4?t=1578
      - Gud 2y ago
        > What an ignorant take. It would help for you to expand your horizons and realize that other countries have reasons for doing the things they do. The world is not one size fits all. From what it looks like across the pond, when it comes to American politics(and anything adjacent) the answer is almost always "greed".
agubelu 2y ago
We use traditional paper ballots in Spain, and we have the full results within 2-3h of polls closing. The trick is using a distributed system. Each ballot box is opened, counted and tallied at the same time. The results (along with the votes themselves for posterior re-counting if needed) are sent to local electoral authorities who input the updates into a central system in real time. It essentially takes as long as it takes to count the fullest ballot boxes in big cities. Funny that you mentioned speed as an argument for electronic voting, though. I never understood how the US uses it, yet it takes them days to get the full results.
- nebula8804 2y ago
  >We use traditional paper ballots in Spain, and we have the full results within 2-3h of polls closing. Thats great for a country of 44 million, not so great with a country the population of 333 million spread across multiple time zones. >The trick is using a distributed system. Each ballot box is opened, counted and tallied at the same time. The results (along with the votes themselves for posterior re-counting if needed) are sent to local electoral authorities who input the updates into a central system in real time. It essentially takes as long as it takes to count the fullest ballot boxes in big cities. Lets set aside the issues involved with transmitting data electronically (sounds like just a distributed electronic system). Each state in the US runs its own election process and has its own budget. You would have numerous problems implementing this system across a country with 4 primary time zones(lets ignore the lone two states with separate time zones for now). >Funny that you mentioned speed as an argument for electronic voting, though. I never understood how the US uses it, yet it takes them days to get the full results. What are you talking about? The last several elections were typically decided within 12-24 hrs of the polls closing on the east coast. Where are you getting your "days" from? Maybe you are just reading Spanish news that is days behind in covering American news?
  - throwawayffffas 2y ago
    Simple math tells you just need 10ish times the people counting. > The last several elections were typically decided within 12-24 hrs of the polls closing on the east coast. Where are you getting your "days" from? Arizona was still counting 3 or 4 days later. Also 24 hours is a day.
jazzyjackson 2y ago
I don't really think the public demands it, it's just the newscasters that race with each other to arrive at a statistically strong enough projection to "call it" eg "Dewey Defeats Truman"
- nebula8804 2y ago
  You are referencing an event that happened 76 years ago. Its pretty clear that at this point the public is used to and expects quick results.
  - jazzyjackson 2y ago
    And Dewey conceded the morning after the election then, is that not a quick result? My point is we don't need computers to tally votes and the only people actually vested in knowing who wins within hours of polls closing is the people selling papers.
ErikBjare 2y ago
Same as every other country that uses paper ballots and gets same day results?
- nebula8804 2y ago
  How many of those have a population of 333 million?
  - chpatrick 2y ago
    The EU (449 million)?
    - jewelry 2y ago
      But EU election is not as consequential as national election in the individual states of EU, right?
      - chpatrick 2y ago
        The point was whether it's possible at such a large scale.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - PoignardAzur 2y ago
    Counting methods that work for a population of 60 millions will work for a population of 300 millions. It's not like counting votes is a O(N²) problem.
    - nebula8804 2y ago
      When you have ballots that have multiple questions on it and different amounts for each state, it scales linearly. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-184ssFce4&t=1578s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-184ssFce4&t=1578s
amy-petrik-214 2y ago
Does the public demand same day results? If we're tapped into the psyche of the public and able to channel the public's collective mind, the public also demands unhackable results, so there's that. You can't hack an paper. The public also demands that people stop declaring what it does and does not demand. I personally think the way to deal with this hacker that goes by the handle DEFCON who is coming for the elections is to bring in an even more powerful hacker, yes, I speak of the hacker known as "4chan"
- nebula8804 2y ago
  >Does the public demand same day results? If we're tapped into the psyche of the public and able to channel the public's collective mind, the public also demands unhackable results, so there's that. Well clearly they don't since there hasn't been any urgency in this issue. But despite the fact that you are operating in a bubble and there is only a small cadre of activists many states have in fact changed course and have moved to a compromise: DRE with Paper audit. Is this enough? Well probably not, they should add risk limiting audits as well. >You can't hack an paper. The public also demands that people stop declaring what it does and does not demand. Well a slow paper count can potentially call into question the validity of an election when you are in a political environment where there is loss of trust (whether real or imagined). [1]:https://apnews.com/article/2022-midterm-elections-arizona-ballot-counting-d9425f8f9b0b0ea203c6453cac860016 https://apnews.com/article/2022-midterm-elections-arizona-ba... "There were some Republican activists in Arizona who advocated that voters intentionally wait until Election Day itself to drop off their ballots. Some of this push was based on unfounded theories that fraudsters could manipulate voting systems and rig results for Democrats, once they had seen how many GOP votes had been returned early. Experts had also warned that such a last-minute crush of ballots could end up creating delays that can ultimately be used by a bad actor to undermine confidence in the election. But there were indications that many GOP voters had heeded that call — the volume of mail-in ballots dropped off on Election Day far surpassed previous years in some counties — which Lake and other Republicans saw as reason to be confident the later ballots would break their way." >I personally think the way to deal with this hacker that goes by the handle DEFCON who is coming for the elections is to bring in an even more powerful hacker, yes, I speak of the hacker known as "4chan" Honestly sounds like you spend too much time online. Even election security advocates cite the reason for DRE is due to the difficulty in counting ballots in an efficient manner: [1]: https://youtu.be/U-184ssFce4?t=1578 https://youtu.be/U-184ssFce4?t=1578
willcipriano 2y ago
This is a solved problem, in the third world, in the 80's. Then the knowledge was lost to man somehow. I really pitty you if you belive this.
Pyrodogg 2y ago
"same day 100% done" is just not possible unless things like mail-in deadlines are shifted to be "received by" instead of "post marked by" the election day. If people want same day results, it's a heavier process change than "count faster". With the current rules trying to cut it off in mere hours is disenfranchising valid voters.
7bit 2y ago
> But the public demands same day results. How are you going to overcome this issue? This is suggestive reasoning. If you're going down that path, please provide a source for your claim, that the public demands results on the same day.
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
Who is actually demanding same day results? With mail in ballots being more common these days, it’s not really possible anyways (in a close race that can’t be called early). I would be okay with having a one month waiting period if needed. And with multiple days of actual voting at booths to accommodate people’s personal lives.

hammock 2y ago

> vulnerability in voting systems has become too partisan in the US for anyone to ever address it It's pretty uniformly bipartisan, just on an alternating 4-year schedule somehow