10 ms·

DEFCON found vulnerabilities in voting machines–but there's no time to fix them

33 points by hammock 2y ago

quantified 2y ago
> Voting Village organizers are frustrated that, despite years of security findings, voting machines vendors aren’t moving more quickly to make fixes. Who actually cares about security? Enough to make it an active priority? The neat thing about state actors manipulating the machines is that so long as they're not detected, no one will lose their jobs or contracts. Remember, it took Team Trump being ridiculous to make Smartmatic seem sympathetic.
- nebula8804 2y ago
  >Who actually cares about security? A better way to frame this is what do the parties care about and what motivates them to care so deeply about that topic? I was at Voting Village this year and to see the same dogshit Diebold systems from the 2000s was depressing. Fortunately there is a solution since these systems are administered state by state. Focus on the potential swing states to make sure they are up to par. Thats where the real fight is. I can tell you in my local state(a strong democratic leaning state), local activists have been pushing the government and they actually managed to phase out all old voting machines for a Electronic + Print system that allows the voters to verify the ballot before casting. There is a paper record in case the election is close and so it can then be recounted. Its not perfect but its a start. Also there is something to be said that 95% percent of 2024 voters will be voting with a voter verified paper trail so there has been a lot of progress made. [1]:https://bipartisanpolicy.org/explainer/united-in-security-state-vote-protections/ https://bipartisanpolicy.org/explainer/united-in-security-st...
ImJamal 2y ago
Just use paper ballots?
- nebula8804 2y ago
  How are you going to count them all quickly when the public demands same day results?
  - nikau 2y ago
    Like most countries scale up with lots of people to count them ?
    - nebula8804 2y ago
      Whos is going to pay for it? Many states certainly wont. If all states don't commit, then you are stuck with the same problem.
      - mensetmanusman 2y ago
        In many countries volunteers exist.
        nebula8804 2y ago
        You want the nuttiest of the Trump nutjobs "counting" your ballots? Because thats whats going to happen.
        mensetmanusman 2y ago
        Whoever doesn’t can volunteer to oversight positions. This is the same issue in every country with voting.
        nikau 2y ago
        Do you really want the nuttiest of the Trump nutjobs "developing" your voting machine code?
        nebula8804 2y ago
PoignardAzur 2y ago
I think by now the concept of a vulnerability in voting systems has become too partisan in the US for anyone to ever address it. I really wish states everywhere just banned electronic voting. The savings simply aren't worth the loss of trust and verifiability. (See also, Venezuela's recent election.)
- nebula8804 2y ago
  >I really wish states everywhere just banned electronic voting. The savings simply aren't worth the loss of trust and verifiability. But the public demands same day results. How are you going to overcome this issue?
  - Vecr 2y ago
    The UK's really fast at counting. Or isn't the result on January 20 more important anyway? Change the norm.
    - nebula8804 2y ago
      Population 66 Million vs 333 million spread across 6 time zones(if you include Hawaii and Alaska).
      - sfn42 2y ago
        Man you Americans really suck at math don't you? It's always "but our big population", somehow that's the excuse for everything. Shitty prison system - big population, shitty healthcare system - big population, shitty education - big population, shitty voting system - big population. Meanwhile I've never seen anyone explain why these things can't scale. You have more people so you have more votes but you also have more people to count them. Okay so there's a few different time zones so what? That's an easily solvable problem.
        nebula8804 2y ago
        >Man you Americans really suck at math don't you? It's always "but our big population", somehow that's the excuse for everything. Shitty prison system - big population, shitty healthcare system - big population, shitty education - big population, shitty voting system - big population. What an ignorant take. It would help for you to expand your horizons and realize that other countries have reasons for doing the things they do. The world is not one size fits all. >Meanwhile I've never seen anyone explain why these things can't scale. You have more people so you have more votes but you also have more people to count them. Okay so there's a few different time zones so what? That's an easily solvable problem. Don't cite me then, cite an acclaimed election security researcher: https://youtu.be/U-184ssFce4?t=1578 https://youtu.be/U-184ssFce4?t=1578
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
The entire voting process needs much more transparency, with the ability to conduct third party audits while retaining ballot secrecy. Yes this means fixing machines, maybe even forcing them to be open source, but also instituting procedural changes like voter identity verification. I am not sure how anyone can argue against making the most fundamental process in a democracy more resistant to various attacks or security gaps.
3np 2y ago
Clickbait headline and nothingburger article? I don't read of any new vulnerabilities. I read that vulnerabilities have been announced at past DEFCON events and there is a new DEFCON event. Then concerns of what a hypothetical new vulneraibility could be at this point in the US election cycle. The dicussion is valid but nothing is new here?

33 points by hammock 2y ago

> Voting Village organizers are frustrated that, despite years of security findings, voting machines vendors aren’t moving more quickly to make fixes. Who actually cares about security? Enough to make it an active priority? The neat thing about state actors manipulating the machines is that so long as they're not detected, no one will lose their jobs or contracts. Remember, it took Team Trump being ridiculous to make Smartmatic seem sympathetic.

nebula8804 2y ago
>Who actually cares about security? A better way to frame this is what do the parties care about and what motivates them to care so deeply about that topic? I was at Voting Village this year and to see the same dogshit Diebold systems from the 2000s was depressing. Fortunately there is a solution since these systems are administered state by state. Focus on the potential swing states to make sure they are up to par. Thats where the real fight is. I can tell you in my local state(a strong democratic leaning state), local activists have been pushing the government and they actually managed to phase out all old voting machines for a Electronic + Print system that allows the voters to verify the ballot before casting. There is a paper record in case the election is close and so it can then be recounted. Its not perfect but its a start. Also there is something to be said that 95% percent of 2024 voters will be voting with a voter verified paper trail so there has been a lot of progress made. [1]:https://bipartisanpolicy.org/explainer/united-in-security-state-vote-protections/ https://bipartisanpolicy.org/explainer/united-in-security-st...

ImJamal 2y ago

Just use paper ballots?

nebula8804 2y ago
How are you going to count them all quickly when the public demands same day results?
- nikau 2y ago
  Like most countries scale up with lots of people to count them ?
  - nebula8804 2y ago
    Whos is going to pay for it? Many states certainly wont. If all states don't commit, then you are stuck with the same problem.
    - mensetmanusman 2y ago
      In many countries volunteers exist.
      - nebula8804 2y ago
        You want the nuttiest of the Trump nutjobs "counting" your ballots? Because thats whats going to happen.
        mensetmanusman 2y ago
        Whoever doesn’t can volunteer to oversight positions. This is the same issue in every country with voting.
        nikau 2y ago
        Do you really want the nuttiest of the Trump nutjobs "developing" your voting machine code?
        nebula8804 2y ago

PoignardAzur 2y ago

I think by now the concept of a vulnerability in voting systems has become too partisan in the US for anyone to ever address it. I really wish states everywhere just banned electronic voting. The savings simply aren't worth the loss of trust and verifiability. (See also, Venezuela's recent election.)

nebula8804 2y ago
>I really wish states everywhere just banned electronic voting. The savings simply aren't worth the loss of trust and verifiability. But the public demands same day results. How are you going to overcome this issue?
- Vecr 2y ago
  The UK's really fast at counting. Or isn't the result on January 20 more important anyway? Change the norm.
  - nebula8804 2y ago
    Population 66 Million vs 333 million spread across 6 time zones(if you include Hawaii and Alaska).
    - sfn42 2y ago
      Man you Americans really suck at math don't you? It's always "but our big population", somehow that's the excuse for everything. Shitty prison system - big population, shitty healthcare system - big population, shitty education - big population, shitty voting system - big population. Meanwhile I've never seen anyone explain why these things can't scale. You have more people so you have more votes but you also have more people to count them. Okay so there's a few different time zones so what? That's an easily solvable problem.
      - nebula8804 2y ago
        >Man you Americans really suck at math don't you? It's always "but our big population", somehow that's the excuse for everything. Shitty prison system - big population, shitty healthcare system - big population, shitty education - big population, shitty voting system - big population. What an ignorant take. It would help for you to expand your horizons and realize that other countries have reasons for doing the things they do. The world is not one size fits all. >Meanwhile I've never seen anyone explain why these things can't scale. You have more people so you have more votes but you also have more people to count them. Okay so there's a few different time zones so what? That's an easily solvable problem. Don't cite me then, cite an acclaimed election security researcher: https://youtu.be/U-184ssFce4?t=1578 https://youtu.be/U-184ssFce4?t=1578

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago

The entire voting process needs much more transparency, with the ability to conduct third party audits while retaining ballot secrecy. Yes this means fixing machines, maybe even forcing them to be open source, but also instituting procedural changes like voter identity verification. I am not sure how anyone can argue against making the most fundamental process in a democracy more resistant to various attacks or security gaps.

3np 2y ago

Clickbait headline and nothingburger article? I don't read of any new vulnerabilities. I read that vulnerabilities have been announced at past DEFCON events and there is a new DEFCON event. Then concerns of what a hypothetical new vulneraibility could be at this point in the US election cycle. The dicussion is valid but nothing is new here?