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>When has that ever happened? I can't think of any time when a company lost enough PR to actually significantly affects its financials, much less put it out of

>When has that ever happened? I can't think of any time when a company lost enough PR to actually significantly affects its financials, much less put it out of business. Exactly. VW shortened the lifespan of millions of Europeans with their Diesel gate and their finances are still solid. Ikea and Oil companies destroy the environment all the time and saw no financial hit from the PR issues. Nike, Apple and other major manufacturers are known to have used sweatshop labor and also saw no financial consequences. Consumers just don't seem to care enough about the PR of $COMPANY as long as their contempt with how the $PRODUCT they bought works and serves them well.

cogman10 2y ago
Nestle regularly uses slave and child labor. I don't pin this 100% on customers, because many people aren't informed and worse, it's often not just these single companies, it's all their major competitors doing exactly the same thing. The issue is a lack of regulation and enforcement. We can't trust major companies to be good actors because capitalism does not reward honest actors. This is one purposes of government, to make the cost of being a bad actor high enough that companies behave.
alt227 2y ago
> VW shortened the lifespan of millions of Europeans Thats a bit of an over the top way of saying it!
- sjsdaiuasgdia 2y ago
  We could stand to do a bit more raising of the profile of the externalities of such events. The emissions regulations that VW was cheating to get around exist for the purpose of improving air quality. The improved air quality leads to less air quality induced health problems. Which in turn leads to longer, higher quality lives for people in Europe. VW wasn't going around and directly pouring vials of poison into people's food like some kind of cartoon villain. But they absolutely were intentionally lying about the emissions of their vehicles, and those emissions absolutely have impacts to human health.
  - alt227 2y ago
    Its fair to say that VW intentially pushed the emissions of their vehicles over the recomended limit, which potentially affects the health of millions of people. Saying VW directly shortened the lifespan of millions is just Hyperbole.
    - Rinzler89 2y ago
      >Saying VW directly shortened the lifespan of millions is just Hyperbole. Why? What's the difference when the outcome is the same? Your malicious actions still lead to deaths. "I didn't directly murder someone, I just didn't clean the radioactive residue form his house because that would have cost me time and money so now he's dead."
      - alt227 2y ago
        Its not the same though is it. In your example there can be a cause of death identified as radiation poising which can be attributed to the residue in his house. With the VW example, you cant quantify it at all. How much has it shortened peoples lives? 2 seconds? 10 years? nanoseconds? Its not a direct correlation, theres no graph you can plot with emissions against length of life, and so claiming that there is a direct correlation is Hyperbole.
        Dylan16807 2y ago
        > With the VW example, you cant quantify it at all. How much has it shortened peoples lives? 2 seconds? 10 years? nanoseconds? Its not a direct correlation, theres no graph you can plot with emissions against length of life https://theicct.org/sites/default/files/NOx%20Health%20Fact%20Sheet%20global%202post.pdf https://theicct.org/sites/default/files/NOx%20Health%20Fact%... > According to new research published in Nature, NOX from diesel vehicle exhaust was linked to 107,600 premature deaths worldwide in 2015. Of these, ~38,000 are attributable to excess NOX emissions. Sounds like the graphs do exist. (Obviously VW is only a fraction of those specific numbers.)
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  >Thats a bit of an over the top way of saying it! Why? Excess of fine particulate matter in the air we breathe, like the one coming from diesel soot, does reduce life expectancy.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- benterix 2y ago
  We can argue about the extent of this contribution, and whether it was negligible, but not about if it actually happened. (Unfortunately emissions are not the only culprit and a lot of particulate matter that has negative impact on overall population health in cities comes from brakes and tires but nobody figured a feasible way to deal with that yet.)
  - alt227 2y ago
    Fully agreed. Finally a sensible reply.
vundercind 2y ago
1) You can’t keep up with all of it. 2) There are substantial costs to avoiding all the brands known to be doing bad things, both in time and money, even if you could keep up with it. 3) Ok, so you’ve decided the cost to you and your family is worth it: congrats, your efforts harm you more than all these companies unless a whole bunch of other people do the same thing, and keep doing it (i.e. it’s a coordination problem) There are reasons boycotts and such are all but entirely ineffective as a means of keeping megacorps in line, and it’s not really “consumers’” fault things are how they are. It’s structural.

cogman10 2y ago

Nestle regularly uses slave and child labor. I don't pin this 100% on customers, because many people aren't informed and worse, it's often not just these single companies, it's all their major competitors doing exactly the same thing. The issue is a lack of regulation and enforcement. We can't trust major companies to be good actors because capitalism does not reward honest actors. This is one purposes of government, to make the cost of being a bad actor high enough that companies behave.

alt227 2y ago

> VW shortened the lifespan of millions of Europeans Thats a bit of an over the top way of saying it!

sjsdaiuasgdia 2y ago
We could stand to do a bit more raising of the profile of the externalities of such events. The emissions regulations that VW was cheating to get around exist for the purpose of improving air quality. The improved air quality leads to less air quality induced health problems. Which in turn leads to longer, higher quality lives for people in Europe. VW wasn't going around and directly pouring vials of poison into people's food like some kind of cartoon villain. But they absolutely were intentionally lying about the emissions of their vehicles, and those emissions absolutely have impacts to human health.
- alt227 2y ago
  Its fair to say that VW intentially pushed the emissions of their vehicles over the recomended limit, which potentially affects the health of millions of people. Saying VW directly shortened the lifespan of millions is just Hyperbole.
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    >Saying VW directly shortened the lifespan of millions is just Hyperbole. Why? What's the difference when the outcome is the same? Your malicious actions still lead to deaths. "I didn't directly murder someone, I just didn't clean the radioactive residue form his house because that would have cost me time and money so now he's dead."
    - alt227 2y ago
      Its not the same though is it. In your example there can be a cause of death identified as radiation poising which can be attributed to the residue in his house. With the VW example, you cant quantify it at all. How much has it shortened peoples lives? 2 seconds? 10 years? nanoseconds? Its not a direct correlation, theres no graph you can plot with emissions against length of life, and so claiming that there is a direct correlation is Hyperbole.
      - Dylan16807 2y ago
        > With the VW example, you cant quantify it at all. How much has it shortened peoples lives? 2 seconds? 10 years? nanoseconds? Its not a direct correlation, theres no graph you can plot with emissions against length of life https://theicct.org/sites/default/files/NOx%20Health%20Fact%20Sheet%20global%202post.pdf https://theicct.org/sites/default/files/NOx%20Health%20Fact%... > According to new research published in Nature, NOX from diesel vehicle exhaust was linked to 107,600 premature deaths worldwide in 2015. Of these, ~38,000 are attributable to excess NOX emissions. Sounds like the graphs do exist. (Obviously VW is only a fraction of those specific numbers.)
Rinzler89 2y ago
>Thats a bit of an over the top way of saying it! Why? Excess of fine particulate matter in the air we breathe, like the one coming from diesel soot, does reduce life expectancy.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
benterix 2y ago
We can argue about the extent of this contribution, and whether it was negligible, but not about if it actually happened. (Unfortunately emissions are not the only culprit and a lot of particulate matter that has negative impact on overall population health in cities comes from brakes and tires but nobody figured a feasible way to deal with that yet.)
- alt227 2y ago
  Fully agreed. Finally a sensible reply.

vundercind 2y ago

1) You can’t keep up with all of it. 2) There are substantial costs to avoiding all the brands known to be doing bad things, both in time and money, even if you could keep up with it. 3) Ok, so you’ve decided the cost to you and your family is worth it: congrats, your efforts harm you more than all these companies unless a whole bunch of other people do the same thing, and keep doing it (i.e. it’s a coordination problem) There are reasons boycotts and such are all but entirely ineffective as a means of keeping megacorps in line, and it’s not really “consumers’” fault things are how they are. It’s structural.