6 ms·

“Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law bi

by baq 2y ago

“Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” sounds like mr Musk is a conservative.

dredmorbius 2y ago
Quote's by Frank Wilhoit.
ribelo 2y ago
[flagged]
- HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
  I'm not following.
  - SequoiaHope 2y ago
    ribelo is saying that "modern liberalism" can be characterized by a belief that "There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect." At least in leftist philosophical circles, which are what I am familiar with, this is a relatively common critique of liberalism. Another common rhetorical tactic in leftist critiques is to point out that the bad beliefs liberals often blame the conservatives for having are actually in practice tenants of modern liberalism too. For example both conservatives and liberals are in favor to some degree of using the military overseas to maintain global hegemony. I don't know if ribelo is leftist or not but in any case I can see what they are going for.
    - Moto7451 2y ago
      https://slate.com/business/2022/06/wilhoits-law-conservatives-frank-wilhoit.html https://slate.com/business/2022/06/wilhoits-law-conservative... Here’s an interview with the actual author. The quote has its own interesting history.
  - AnimalMuppet 2y ago
    Imagine a kid insulting another kid on a playground. The other kid says "I know you are, but what am I?" That's pretty much what's going on with the GP comment. It's a really low-effort and really transparent attempt to paint the other side with what your side has been accused of. Mind you, I don't think it's a fair criticism of conservativism, either...
_xiaz 2y ago
[flagged]
bko 2y ago
This is not what conservatism is
- katzinsky 2y ago
  It's not a complete definition but he is right that conservatism is completely incompatible with universalism. This is a little confusing in the US and other Anglo countries because traditionally we have been fairly liberal so sometimes people confuse liberalism and conservatism.
  - wavemode 2y ago
    You're going to need to provide a source for the definitions you're using for "conservatism", "liberalism" and "universalism". Without those, your comment is difficult to make any sense of, since the way you're using those words seems to differ from any sort of standardized definition.
    - katzinsky 2y ago
      I think we can both agree that for example liberalism and Islam are incompatible. So if you want to conserve liberalism you'll have to exclude Muslims. That's not universalist -> liberalism and universalism are incompatible.
  - didgeoridoo 2y ago
    In the Anglo countries, what is being “conserved” is the liberal universalist tradition of the Enlightenment, and what is being “progressed” is a power- and identity-centered postmodernism. Don’t get this confused with conservative and progressive politicians, though, who are generally ignorant of the actual traditions and philosophies behind their respective movements, and are essentially just cutouts for competing media and financial corporate interests. The few holdouts on both sides have been successfully sidelined (Bernie Sanders, Ron Paul), and it looks like the military-industrial complex will have their war with Iran no matter what the results of the next few elections are. (Sorry, I’ll go have my coffee now and see if I get a little less doomer.)
didgeoridoo 2y ago
According to the random Crooked Timber blog commenter who coined that viral aphorism in 2018, yes. But by what standard are that commenter’s musings to be considered expositive on modern conservative philosophy?
- llamaimperative 2y ago
  Empirical observation of the last 10 years? Cue No True Conservative, etc.
  - didgeoridoo 2y ago
    Observing the last 10 years, which political movement is most associated with the idea that inherent identity characteristics should dictate how you are treated under the law?
    - drxzcl 2y ago
      The guys closing polling places in black neighbourhoods? The guys denying women and trans people healthcare? Identity politics has always been a conservative project.
      - joenot443 2y ago
        My understanding is the earliest application of identity politics comes from thinkers like Fanon and Wollstonecraft, would you categorize them as being conservatives?
        drxzcl 2y ago
        Again, you are ignoring the identity based systems they describe, that have been in place for centuries before either of them were born. You know which ones I mean.
    - llamaimperative 2y ago
      "In-group" doesn't necessarily mean identity characteristics. In today's (US) conservative party, it distinctly means "pledges personal allegiance to party leader." As an example: The "conservative" judge who threw out 40 years of precedent on a technicality to prevent the American public from learning whether their former and potentially future president sold, gave away, or otherwise exposed national security secrets after he undoubtedly stole those documents. There's a fundamental asymmetry in "the movement" on the left - which essentially rounds out to whatever annoying undergrad student showed up in your Twitter feed today - and the actual elected, governing leaders of the right, doing things like throwing out very strong criminal cases on matters of deep public importance.
binary132 2y ago
what a nasty vicious outgroup
kardianos 2y ago
That's not any conservatism that I recognize. In fact, what is espoused there is exactly the progressive left (Herbert Harcuse's "repressive tolerance") mindset. And while I will grant you that liberalism (not to be confused with leftism), is different then conservatism, both (classical) liberalism and conservatism strongly require equal treatment (procedural symmetry).
- thrance 2y ago
  Didn't Trump himself say he would pardon the rioters that stormed the Capitol, if ever he was reelected ? Didn't he say that he would "lock up" all the "sick, evil" democrats after he is reelected ? Modern american conservatism very well fits the quote from grandparent. Also, surely you would know what "repressive tolerance" is, since you're quoting it ? You would also know that the author you cite, whose name you misspelled, was critiquing the concept ?
  - kardianos 2y ago
    Yes, I fat-fingered his name, didn't I. It should be: "Herbert Marcuse". And no, I have not seen a primary source where in context Trump said that he would "" "lock up" all the "sick, evil" democrats after he is reelected"". Do you have such a primary source? Years ago I was told that Trump said the white supremacists were "very fine people", so I looked at the transcript and he literally said the opposite.
    - archagon 2y ago
      I don't know what you read, but Trump is (or was) buddies with Fuentes: https://www.politico.com/news/2022/11/25/trump-white-nationalist-nick-fuentes-kanye-00070825 https://www.politico.com/news/2022/11/25/trump-white-nationa...
    - thrance 2y ago
      He said those words in an interview with Glenn Beck. Here's a Guardian article reporting on it: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/aug/30/trump-interview-jail-political-opponents-glenn-beck https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/aug/30/trump-interv... I don't think he ever endorsed white supremacists, but I think I remember (wouldn't bet on it) an instance where a journalist asked him why some keep showing up at his rallies and why he does nothing about it. He then answered that he doesn't really know who they are, that he didn't know, etc. basically eluding the question. i.e. they're welcome but won't proclaim his support for them, one of the many dog whistles Republicans use nowadays.
clarionbell 2y ago
I would encourage everybody who thinks so to pursue basic political and philosophical education. Perhaps with a dash of history. This definition is plainly wrong on so many levels that it's practically impossible to engage with. But I'll make that mistake and engage on two points. First, it implies that conservative position has somehow consistent features across time and space. There is difference between conservative in Germany, USA and China. Not to mention conservative in early, mid and late 20th century. Second, ignoring legal norms is neither stated, nor implicated position of conservative political movements. At very worst, we can accuse them of maintaining laws with discriminatory intents. But not of flaunting those same laws.
- assbuttbuttass 2y ago
  > ignoring legal norms is neither stated, nor implicated position of conservative political movements The Republican candidate for president in the USA is a convicted felon
  - swat535 2y ago
    What does that have to do with the definition of Conservatism as political thought?
    - thejazzman 2y ago
      North American Conservatives (i.e. citizen of the United States) have done olympic-worthy gymnastics to align with the aforementioned felon's redefinition of conservatism belief in America, even while those beliefs actively contradict their religion and life-long belief systems, or even their own on going behaviors and decisions. I say this as someone living in Pennsylvania, drowning in the hypocrisy and escalating hate this group of people has been spewing for the last ~8 years. Therefore I can completely understand why someone might focus on that as the most relevant definition on 'conservatism' today in the USA.
      - hnarn 2y ago
tacitusarc 2y ago
This is unconstructive flamebait.
hagbard_c 2y ago
Sounds like a made-up definition of Conservatism as 'that which I do not agree with'. It is not a very good definition, if you really want to find out what it is about you could read (or listen to) some of Roger Scruton's works. Here's an interview with Scruton to give some ideas of what it is about: https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/07/roger-scruton-meaning-of-conservatism/ https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/07/roger-scruton-meaning... You do not need to agree with him or his definition of Conservatism and there are other definitions of the term which are also applicable but none of those definitions have any resemblance to what you posed. Musk is a centrist, not a conservative. He used to stand to the left of centre but has been moved to the right of centre by virtue of the left moving further left, thereby moving the centre to the left as well while Musk staid put. Society needs conservatives just like it needs centrists and progressives and whatever other names you want to give to these philosophies and/or ideologies. A world made out of only progressives never gets anywhere since they will never find out what works well and what does not since their aim is to shape the future by means of societal change. A world made out of only progressives will eventually grow stale when the rate of change in the environment outpaces societies' capacity for change. Progressives can make good innovators but tend to be less able at keeping things running. Conservatives can be good at keeping things running but tend to be less inclined to innovation. These are broad brush strokes but the essence is sound, society tends to work best when there is a balance between conservatives and progressives. You might notice some parallels: architects tend to be lousy builders, builders tend to be uninspired architects. Developers tend to be less gifted at UI design, UI designers tend to be sloppy developers. Copy editors tend to be unremarkable writers, writers tend to be less effective copy editors.
ein0p 2y ago
[flagged]
- mattigames 2y ago
  The opposite is what happened, actually: https://apnews.com/article/hunter-biden-gun-trial-federal-charges-delaware-5dd8a9380235c6360a1ddb691ef24a06 https://apnews.com/article/hunter-biden-gun-trial-federal-ch...
  - ein0p 2y ago
    Nothing has “happened” yet, seeing that Hunter is still not in the slammer. Moreover, nothing is going to happen. Nothing ever does.
    - mattigames 2y ago
      I feel like I'm living in an alternative dimension when somebody worries about that when we have someone like Trump literally running for president and with a high likelihood of winning, like someone buying a gun after using drugs its a matter of massive importance when we have a jackass this close to being president who literally stole from charity and would convert muslins, black people and mexicans into slaves if he could.
      - ein0p 2y ago
        I’m not the one arguing for moral superiority that Democrats purportedly have over Republicans, which is the point the OP was unsuccessfully trying to make. Truth is: the probability of seeing the inside of a jail cell is markedly lower for the rich and well connected, irrespective of their political affiliation.
        alm1 2y ago
        this is quite a different statement from "nothing ever happens".
ralfd 2y ago
Offtopic: Wiki says about that quote attributed to political scientist Francis Wilhoit it is just from some random musician from Ohio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_M._Wilhoit#:~:text=Conservatism%20consists%20of%20exactly%20one,binds%20but%20does%20not%20protect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_M._Wilhoit#:~:text=Con.... > However, it was actually a 2018 blog response by 59-year-old Ohio composer Frank Wilhoit, years after Francis Wilhoit's death."

by baq 2y ago

dredmorbius 2y ago

Quote's by Frank Wilhoit.

ribelo 2y ago

[flagged]

HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
I'm not following.
- SequoiaHope 2y ago
  ribelo is saying that "modern liberalism" can be characterized by a belief that "There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect." At least in leftist philosophical circles, which are what I am familiar with, this is a relatively common critique of liberalism. Another common rhetorical tactic in leftist critiques is to point out that the bad beliefs liberals often blame the conservatives for having are actually in practice tenants of modern liberalism too. For example both conservatives and liberals are in favor to some degree of using the military overseas to maintain global hegemony. I don't know if ribelo is leftist or not but in any case I can see what they are going for.
  - Moto7451 2y ago
    https://slate.com/business/2022/06/wilhoits-law-conservatives-frank-wilhoit.html https://slate.com/business/2022/06/wilhoits-law-conservative... Here’s an interview with the actual author. The quote has its own interesting history.
- AnimalMuppet 2y ago
  Imagine a kid insulting another kid on a playground. The other kid says "I know you are, but what am I?" That's pretty much what's going on with the GP comment. It's a really low-effort and really transparent attempt to paint the other side with what your side has been accused of. Mind you, I don't think it's a fair criticism of conservativism, either...

_xiaz 2y ago

[flagged]

bko 2y ago

This is not what conservatism is

katzinsky 2y ago
It's not a complete definition but he is right that conservatism is completely incompatible with universalism. This is a little confusing in the US and other Anglo countries because traditionally we have been fairly liberal so sometimes people confuse liberalism and conservatism.
- wavemode 2y ago
  You're going to need to provide a source for the definitions you're using for "conservatism", "liberalism" and "universalism". Without those, your comment is difficult to make any sense of, since the way you're using those words seems to differ from any sort of standardized definition.
  - katzinsky 2y ago
    I think we can both agree that for example liberalism and Islam are incompatible. So if you want to conserve liberalism you'll have to exclude Muslims. That's not universalist -> liberalism and universalism are incompatible.
- didgeoridoo 2y ago
  In the Anglo countries, what is being “conserved” is the liberal universalist tradition of the Enlightenment, and what is being “progressed” is a power- and identity-centered postmodernism. Don’t get this confused with conservative and progressive politicians, though, who are generally ignorant of the actual traditions and philosophies behind their respective movements, and are essentially just cutouts for competing media and financial corporate interests. The few holdouts on both sides have been successfully sidelined (Bernie Sanders, Ron Paul), and it looks like the military-industrial complex will have their war with Iran no matter what the results of the next few elections are. (Sorry, I’ll go have my coffee now and see if I get a little less doomer.)

didgeoridoo 2y ago

According to the random Crooked Timber blog commenter who coined that viral aphorism in 2018, yes. But by what standard are that commenter’s musings to be considered expositive on modern conservative philosophy?

llamaimperative 2y ago
Empirical observation of the last 10 years? Cue No True Conservative, etc.
- didgeoridoo 2y ago
  Observing the last 10 years, which political movement is most associated with the idea that inherent identity characteristics should dictate how you are treated under the law?
  - drxzcl 2y ago
    The guys closing polling places in black neighbourhoods? The guys denying women and trans people healthcare? Identity politics has always been a conservative project.
    - joenot443 2y ago
      My understanding is the earliest application of identity politics comes from thinkers like Fanon and Wollstonecraft, would you categorize them as being conservatives?
      - drxzcl 2y ago
        Again, you are ignoring the identity based systems they describe, that have been in place for centuries before either of them were born. You know which ones I mean.
  - llamaimperative 2y ago
    "In-group" doesn't necessarily mean identity characteristics. In today's (US) conservative party, it distinctly means "pledges personal allegiance to party leader." As an example: The "conservative" judge who threw out 40 years of precedent on a technicality to prevent the American public from learning whether their former and potentially future president sold, gave away, or otherwise exposed national security secrets after he undoubtedly stole those documents. There's a fundamental asymmetry in "the movement" on the left - which essentially rounds out to whatever annoying undergrad student showed up in your Twitter feed today - and the actual elected, governing leaders of the right, doing things like throwing out very strong criminal cases on matters of deep public importance.

binary132 2y ago

what a nasty vicious outgroup

kardianos 2y ago

That's not any conservatism that I recognize. In fact, what is espoused there is exactly the progressive left (Herbert Harcuse's "repressive tolerance") mindset. And while I will grant you that liberalism (not to be confused with leftism), is different then conservatism, both (classical) liberalism and conservatism strongly require equal treatment (procedural symmetry).

thrance 2y ago
Didn't Trump himself say he would pardon the rioters that stormed the Capitol, if ever he was reelected ? Didn't he say that he would "lock up" all the "sick, evil" democrats after he is reelected ? Modern american conservatism very well fits the quote from grandparent. Also, surely you would know what "repressive tolerance" is, since you're quoting it ? You would also know that the author you cite, whose name you misspelled, was critiquing the concept ?
- kardianos 2y ago
  Yes, I fat-fingered his name, didn't I. It should be: "Herbert Marcuse". And no, I have not seen a primary source where in context Trump said that he would "" "lock up" all the "sick, evil" democrats after he is reelected"". Do you have such a primary source? Years ago I was told that Trump said the white supremacists were "very fine people", so I looked at the transcript and he literally said the opposite.
  - archagon 2y ago
    I don't know what you read, but Trump is (or was) buddies with Fuentes: https://www.politico.com/news/2022/11/25/trump-white-nationalist-nick-fuentes-kanye-00070825 https://www.politico.com/news/2022/11/25/trump-white-nationa...
  - thrance 2y ago
    He said those words in an interview with Glenn Beck. Here's a Guardian article reporting on it: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/aug/30/trump-interview-jail-political-opponents-glenn-beck https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/aug/30/trump-interv... I don't think he ever endorsed white supremacists, but I think I remember (wouldn't bet on it) an instance where a journalist asked him why some keep showing up at his rallies and why he does nothing about it. He then answered that he doesn't really know who they are, that he didn't know, etc. basically eluding the question. i.e. they're welcome but won't proclaim his support for them, one of the many dog whistles Republicans use nowadays.

clarionbell 2y ago

I would encourage everybody who thinks so to pursue basic political and philosophical education. Perhaps with a dash of history. This definition is plainly wrong on so many levels that it's practically impossible to engage with. But I'll make that mistake and engage on two points. First, it implies that conservative position has somehow consistent features across time and space. There is difference between conservative in Germany, USA and China. Not to mention conservative in early, mid and late 20th century. Second, ignoring legal norms is neither stated, nor implicated position of conservative political movements. At very worst, we can accuse them of maintaining laws with discriminatory intents. But not of flaunting those same laws.

assbuttbuttass 2y ago
> ignoring legal norms is neither stated, nor implicated position of conservative political movements The Republican candidate for president in the USA is a convicted felon
- swat535 2y ago
  What does that have to do with the definition of Conservatism as political thought?
  - thejazzman 2y ago
    North American Conservatives (i.e. citizen of the United States) have done olympic-worthy gymnastics to align with the aforementioned felon's redefinition of conservatism belief in America, even while those beliefs actively contradict their religion and life-long belief systems, or even their own on going behaviors and decisions. I say this as someone living in Pennsylvania, drowning in the hypocrisy and escalating hate this group of people has been spewing for the last ~8 years. Therefore I can completely understand why someone might focus on that as the most relevant definition on 'conservatism' today in the USA.
    - hnarn 2y ago

tacitusarc 2y ago

This is unconstructive flamebait.

hagbard_c 2y ago

Sounds like a made-up definition of Conservatism as 'that which I do not agree with'. It is not a very good definition, if you really want to find out what it is about you could read (or listen to) some of Roger Scruton's works. Here's an interview with Scruton to give some ideas of what it is about: https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/07/roger-scruton-meaning-of-conservatism/ https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/07/roger-scruton-meaning... You do not need to agree with him or his definition of Conservatism and there are other definitions of the term which are also applicable but none of those definitions have any resemblance to what you posed. Musk is a centrist, not a conservative. He used to stand to the left of centre but has been moved to the right of centre by virtue of the left moving further left, thereby moving the centre to the left as well while Musk staid put. Society needs conservatives just like it needs centrists and progressives and whatever other names you want to give to these philosophies and/or ideologies. A world made out of only progressives never gets anywhere since they will never find out what works well and what does not since their aim is to shape the future by means of societal change. A world made out of only progressives will eventually grow stale when the rate of change in the environment outpaces societies' capacity for change. Progressives can make good innovators but tend to be less able at keeping things running. Conservatives can be good at keeping things running but tend to be less inclined to innovation. These are broad brush strokes but the essence is sound, society tends to work best when there is a balance between conservatives and progressives. You might notice some parallels: architects tend to be lousy builders, builders tend to be uninspired architects. Developers tend to be less gifted at UI design, UI designers tend to be sloppy developers. Copy editors tend to be unremarkable writers, writers tend to be less effective copy editors.

ein0p 2y ago

[flagged]

mattigames 2y ago
The opposite is what happened, actually: https://apnews.com/article/hunter-biden-gun-trial-federal-charges-delaware-5dd8a9380235c6360a1ddb691ef24a06 https://apnews.com/article/hunter-biden-gun-trial-federal-ch...
- ein0p 2y ago
  Nothing has “happened” yet, seeing that Hunter is still not in the slammer. Moreover, nothing is going to happen. Nothing ever does.
  - mattigames 2y ago
    I feel like I'm living in an alternative dimension when somebody worries about that when we have someone like Trump literally running for president and with a high likelihood of winning, like someone buying a gun after using drugs its a matter of massive importance when we have a jackass this close to being president who literally stole from charity and would convert muslins, black people and mexicans into slaves if he could.
    - ein0p 2y ago
      I’m not the one arguing for moral superiority that Democrats purportedly have over Republicans, which is the point the OP was unsuccessfully trying to make. Truth is: the probability of seeing the inside of a jail cell is markedly lower for the rich and well connected, irrespective of their political affiliation.
      - alm1 2y ago
        this is quite a different statement from "nothing ever happens".

ralfd 2y ago

Offtopic: Wiki says about that quote attributed to political scientist Francis Wilhoit it is just from some random musician from Ohio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_M._Wilhoit#:~:text=Conservatism%20consists%20of%20exactly%20one,binds%20but%20does%20not%20protect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_M._Wilhoit#:~:text=Con.... > However, it was actually a 2018 blog response by 59-year-old Ohio composer Frank Wilhoit, years after Francis Wilhoit's death."