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This is a fallacy called "Lump of labour fallacy" (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy

This is a fallacy called "Lump of labour fallacy" (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy).

ZoomerCretin 2y ago
Calling something a fallacy does not mean it truly is one. I have not seen strong evidence that there is not a "lump of labor" in extremely high-rent countries like the US. For a sufficiently small period of time, there absolutely is a "lump of labor". If I were to go into a county with robots and rent them out to employers for 1/4 of the wage of their current employees, and they all fired their employees and accepted my robots, do you really believe that all of ex-employees would be able to find work again within 6 months? Or even 70% of them? What about their new wages? Do you think these new jobs would pay as well? I have a hard time believing that to be the case.
- pizza234 2y ago
  There are a number of misconceptions when it comes to the lump of labor fallacy. The prevalent one is confusing the small and the big picture. If a factory introduces automation, no doubt that the resulting job losses are a problem that must be addressed. However, the lump of labor refers to the big picture - in the same time span, other jobs are created elsewhere. If they weren't, considering that automation started at least 200 years ago (in the most limited sense of the term), the whole planet would be out of jobs by now.
vouaobrasil 2y ago
If it is such a fallacy, then why are there fewer and fewer options for those who don't want to be entrenched in technology?
- IG_Semmelweiss 2y ago
  Who's upset here about the hordes of horse manure cleaners that lost their jobs due to the advent of cars? Does anyone miss the stench of a 1800s street in the summer heat? No. Lets ask the influencers, the twitch celebs, the podcasters id they would prefer to shovel horse crap, or play with their e-device all day. And to be completely fair, the manufacturing jobs may be gone because elected leaders were told it was OK export the vast majority of those jobs (millions) abroad, where labor doesn't have govt benefits or red tape. This makes new jobs go to foreigners instead of staying stateside. So, we all save a few pennies on each item made in china and sold on Amazon, at the price of nuking all US craftsmanship and artisans.
  - vouaobrasil 2y ago
    > Who's upset here about the hordes of horse manure cleaners that lost their jobs due to the advent of cars? False dichotomy. Not every modern-day twitch celeb would be shoveling manure. And another false dichotomy: I was not arguing for either NOW or THE TIME before cars. And I wonder how many people would trade their modern influence job for shoveling manure in return for living in an area with cleaner air. Also, ask the question again to people living NEXT to tire factories that stink and whose only job is collecting garbage NOW like bottles from trash because they don't have enough education to get a proper job. Besides, I am one of those "influencers" -- not exactly on Twitch, but a full-time content creator. And I WOULD go back to those times. Why is it that every time I bring up the dangers of technology, some techie HAS to bring up cars versus manure shovelers, as if that settles every argument about the dangers of technology? Rather intellectually stifled, I feel. And rejecting technology doesn't mean going back to the way things WERE; rather it means making changes NOW to go to a NEW future that has less technology.
    - Kiro 2y ago
      You're setting an extremely obnoxious tone by capitalizing random words like that. I suggest that you edit your post if you want to be taken seriously.
      - vouaobrasil 2y ago
        I would call the neighbour playing rap and full volume 'extremely obnoxious'. It's hard to believe that a few capitalized words would fall under the same category. Suggestion noted.
    - skeledrew 2y ago
      Technology disappears when it becomes ubiquitous. It never actually becomes less, because people don't want less. I can't see for example people wanting there to be fewer lightbulbs, or even refrigerators (mainly for those in warm areas). Everybody wants safe lighting and their food unspoiled after a day (once exposed to these things), and likely won't consider the means to be "tech". And it only improves over time. AI is just another tech that's in the early stage but also on it's way to ubiquity.

This is a fallacy called "Lump of labour fallacy" (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy).

ZoomerCretin 2y ago

Calling something a fallacy does not mean it truly is one. I have not seen strong evidence that there is not a "lump of labor" in extremely high-rent countries like the US. For a sufficiently small period of time, there absolutely is a "lump of labor". If I were to go into a county with robots and rent them out to employers for 1/4 of the wage of their current employees, and they all fired their employees and accepted my robots, do you really believe that all of ex-employees would be able to find work again within 6 months? Or even 70% of them? What about their new wages? Do you think these new jobs would pay as well? I have a hard time believing that to be the case.

pizza234 2y ago
There are a number of misconceptions when it comes to the lump of labor fallacy. The prevalent one is confusing the small and the big picture. If a factory introduces automation, no doubt that the resulting job losses are a problem that must be addressed. However, the lump of labor refers to the big picture - in the same time span, other jobs are created elsewhere. If they weren't, considering that automation started at least 200 years ago (in the most limited sense of the term), the whole planet would be out of jobs by now.

vouaobrasil 2y ago

If it is such a fallacy, then why are there fewer and fewer options for those who don't want to be entrenched in technology?

IG_Semmelweiss 2y ago
Who's upset here about the hordes of horse manure cleaners that lost their jobs due to the advent of cars? Does anyone miss the stench of a 1800s street in the summer heat? No. Lets ask the influencers, the twitch celebs, the podcasters id they would prefer to shovel horse crap, or play with their e-device all day. And to be completely fair, the manufacturing jobs may be gone because elected leaders were told it was OK export the vast majority of those jobs (millions) abroad, where labor doesn't have govt benefits or red tape. This makes new jobs go to foreigners instead of staying stateside. So, we all save a few pennies on each item made in china and sold on Amazon, at the price of nuking all US craftsmanship and artisans.
- vouaobrasil 2y ago
  > Who's upset here about the hordes of horse manure cleaners that lost their jobs due to the advent of cars? False dichotomy. Not every modern-day twitch celeb would be shoveling manure. And another false dichotomy: I was not arguing for either NOW or THE TIME before cars. And I wonder how many people would trade their modern influence job for shoveling manure in return for living in an area with cleaner air. Also, ask the question again to people living NEXT to tire factories that stink and whose only job is collecting garbage NOW like bottles from trash because they don't have enough education to get a proper job. Besides, I am one of those "influencers" -- not exactly on Twitch, but a full-time content creator. And I WOULD go back to those times. Why is it that every time I bring up the dangers of technology, some techie HAS to bring up cars versus manure shovelers, as if that settles every argument about the dangers of technology? Rather intellectually stifled, I feel. And rejecting technology doesn't mean going back to the way things WERE; rather it means making changes NOW to go to a NEW future that has less technology.
  - Kiro 2y ago
    You're setting an extremely obnoxious tone by capitalizing random words like that. I suggest that you edit your post if you want to be taken seriously.
    - vouaobrasil 2y ago
      I would call the neighbour playing rap and full volume 'extremely obnoxious'. It's hard to believe that a few capitalized words would fall under the same category. Suggestion noted.
  - skeledrew 2y ago
    Technology disappears when it becomes ubiquitous. It never actually becomes less, because people don't want less. I can't see for example people wanting there to be fewer lightbulbs, or even refrigerators (mainly for those in warm areas). Everybody wants safe lighting and their food unspoiled after a day (once exposed to these things), and likely won't consider the means to be "tech". And it only improves over time. AI is just another tech that's in the early stage but also on it's way to ubiquity.