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I really do think that software engineering as we know it is ending. It will take 3-5 years for tools like this to mature. But it will happen, and hard fought s

I really do think that software engineering as we know it is ending. It will take 3-5 years for tools like this to mature. But it will happen, and hard fought skill sets like SQL database design, query design, and maybe even ORMs will become obsolete. My biggest prediction is that ORMs will not be necessary when LLMs can generate SQL. Low level SQL is a better abstraction for LLMs than ORMs, and as people are removed from the equation, so too will abstractions built to help them craft code.

breckenedge 2y ago
Maybe for apps with a handful of users. Why wouldn’t the LLM use an ORM?
from-nibly 2y ago
LLMs don't have the context to make good decisions though. You need all of that hard fought skills to make those decisions. And people are the only ones that can have the context enough to actually make decisions. Not only that, but AI is way more expensive than we think. We're currently in a hype bubble funded by last ditch effort VC money. When that money runs out, and it will eventually, AI is going to get WAY more expensive.
- Kiro 2y ago
  I personally think LLMs make much better decisions than me. I often have a design in mind and then when I prompt Claude it gives me a much better one, and also takes a lot of edge case into account that I didn't even think of. Maybe I'm a useless programmer but I'm sure I'm not the only one.
  - ldjkfkdsjnv 2y ago
    Even when I write working code, I prompt claude, and it adds a bunch of stuff I would never have added. It astonishes me how good it is
  - samat 2y ago
    Do you use Claude in the web interface/directly prompt it or some tools for that?
righthand 2y ago
We already had SQL model and code generators well before LLMs. What does adding in random output do to improve that?
- ldjkfkdsjnv 2y ago
  You havent been using these tools if you think this
  - righthand 2y ago
    Yes I don’t need to use these tools because I already have code generators. Wondering about config options I use documentation or a search engine. It’s cute to put them together in a single UI but it doesn’t make these tool inherently more intelligent. It just saves me a few alt+tabs. An LLM is just taking prefabbed templates and swapping the possibilities in the answer for a statistically relevant solution. My code generator outputs a prefabbed template with a deterministic solution no statistical guessing required.
    - codingwagie 2y ago
      You dont understand how powerful LLMs are. Go use claude sonnet 3.5. Paste in 1000 lines of code, and describe a code change you want to make. Iterate on the solution it gives. Do this for a week.
      - righthand 2y ago
        If I did that I would waste so much time. I know what code is in my codebase. Maybe if I was a novice this would be effective to help me learn it. Is the point of the exercise to wow myself for a week that an LLM can spit out solutions?
        codingwagie 2y ago
        No its that it will code a days worth of work in a few minutes
simonw 2y ago
Giving everyone a smartphone with a great video camera built in didn't obsolete the field of cinematography. I don't think giving everyone tools to help them build software will obsolete software engineering.
- jedberg 2y ago
  Are you sure? Most of the popular videos today do not have what one would call great cinematography, but it doesn't seem to matter. No one cares. Sure, movies still use cinematographers, but movie watching time is getting eaten up with Instagram/TikTok, where cinematography doesn't matter. I fear applications will suffer the same fate. "Good enough" will take over "well-architected".
  - astockwell 2y ago
    I think you are 100% spot-on. Good enough has always been fine for the vast majority of people and the vast majority of use-cases. Couple this with decreasing costs of storage (and ideally compute), and it doesn't matter if the data model is garbage, people can still get something workable that's better than the awful Excel files they curate now. It will still make errors, but eventually fewer than their spreadsheets.
    - sgarland 2y ago
      > it doesn't matter if the data model is garbage There is no "good enough" for data modeling. There is correct, and there is "this works, but it has latent bugs that will eventually surface." You either have referential integrity, or you don't.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
imtringued 2y ago
How does that make any of the skills obsolete? If anything, it makes them even more important. In the 20th century you got away with knowing the syntax and hacking away. Now you really need to have a deep understanding of relational algebra, since the LLM is doing the typing for you.
Nijikokun 2y ago
Reducing barrier to entry is not a bad thing
adhamsalama 2y ago
> It will take 3-5 years for tools like this to mature. But it will happen, and hard fought skill sets like SQL database design, query design, and maybe even ORMs will become obsolete. Until a query becomes a bottleneck and no one knows why because no one knows how databases work anymore.

breckenedge 2y ago

Maybe for apps with a handful of users. Why wouldn’t the LLM use an ORM?

from-nibly 2y ago

LLMs don't have the context to make good decisions though. You need all of that hard fought skills to make those decisions. And people are the only ones that can have the context enough to actually make decisions. Not only that, but AI is way more expensive than we think. We're currently in a hype bubble funded by last ditch effort VC money. When that money runs out, and it will eventually, AI is going to get WAY more expensive.

Kiro 2y ago
I personally think LLMs make much better decisions than me. I often have a design in mind and then when I prompt Claude it gives me a much better one, and also takes a lot of edge case into account that I didn't even think of. Maybe I'm a useless programmer but I'm sure I'm not the only one.
- ldjkfkdsjnv 2y ago
  Even when I write working code, I prompt claude, and it adds a bunch of stuff I would never have added. It astonishes me how good it is
- samat 2y ago
  Do you use Claude in the web interface/directly prompt it or some tools for that?

righthand 2y ago

We already had SQL model and code generators well before LLMs. What does adding in random output do to improve that?

ldjkfkdsjnv 2y ago
You havent been using these tools if you think this
- righthand 2y ago
  Yes I don’t need to use these tools because I already have code generators. Wondering about config options I use documentation or a search engine. It’s cute to put them together in a single UI but it doesn’t make these tool inherently more intelligent. It just saves me a few alt+tabs. An LLM is just taking prefabbed templates and swapping the possibilities in the answer for a statistically relevant solution. My code generator outputs a prefabbed template with a deterministic solution no statistical guessing required.
  - codingwagie 2y ago
    You dont understand how powerful LLMs are. Go use claude sonnet 3.5. Paste in 1000 lines of code, and describe a code change you want to make. Iterate on the solution it gives. Do this for a week.
    - righthand 2y ago
      If I did that I would waste so much time. I know what code is in my codebase. Maybe if I was a novice this would be effective to help me learn it. Is the point of the exercise to wow myself for a week that an LLM can spit out solutions?
      - codingwagie 2y ago
        No its that it will code a days worth of work in a few minutes

simonw 2y ago

Giving everyone a smartphone with a great video camera built in didn't obsolete the field of cinematography. I don't think giving everyone tools to help them build software will obsolete software engineering.

jedberg 2y ago
Are you sure? Most of the popular videos today do not have what one would call great cinematography, but it doesn't seem to matter. No one cares. Sure, movies still use cinematographers, but movie watching time is getting eaten up with Instagram/TikTok, where cinematography doesn't matter. I fear applications will suffer the same fate. "Good enough" will take over "well-architected".
- astockwell 2y ago
  I think you are 100% spot-on. Good enough has always been fine for the vast majority of people and the vast majority of use-cases. Couple this with decreasing costs of storage (and ideally compute), and it doesn't matter if the data model is garbage, people can still get something workable that's better than the awful Excel files they curate now. It will still make errors, but eventually fewer than their spreadsheets.
  - sgarland 2y ago
    > it doesn't matter if the data model is garbage There is no "good enough" for data modeling. There is correct, and there is "this works, but it has latent bugs that will eventually surface." You either have referential integrity, or you don't.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

imtringued 2y ago

How does that make any of the skills obsolete? If anything, it makes them even more important. In the 20th century you got away with knowing the syntax and hacking away. Now you really need to have a deep understanding of relational algebra, since the LLM is doing the typing for you.

Nijikokun 2y ago

Reducing barrier to entry is not a bad thing

adhamsalama 2y ago

> It will take 3-5 years for tools like this to mature. But it will happen, and hard fought skill sets like SQL database design, query design, and maybe even ORMs will become obsolete. Until a query becomes a bottleneck and no one knows why because no one knows how databases work anymore.