5 ms·

I think it's fair to take a fee for payments through Apple's infrastructure... but 30% is egregious.

kllrnohj 2y ago
Patreon doesn't currently and doesn't want to us Apple's infrastructure. They're being "forced" to do so, hence this post.
- dirtsoc 2y ago
  they should have just gone the same route as amazon with ebooks and removed the ability to subscribe in the app.
  - g15jv2dp 2y ago
    If you can't pay money to content makers, what's the point of a patreon app? It's the whole purpose.
    - HDThoreaun 2y ago
      Seeing the content you paid for when using a non mobile device?
      - aphantastic 2y ago
        I’ve happily been using Patreon for years and didn’t even know an app existed. Has the world entirely forgotten about websites?
        HDThoreaun 2y ago
        Native apps are better than websites on mobile. I know you know this.
        diggan 2y ago
        What do you do on Patreon that only a application could do, and not a website? I subscribe to a bunch of Patreons, and most of them are videos (which I can view on a website) or they're downloadable assets I use my PC for accessing anyways, wouldn't make sense on mobile no matter app or website.
        aphantastic 2y ago
        For what? Clicking a “pay this person $5 a month” button? Maybe commenting on a post or watching a video? I don’t see how the platform could affect that in any significant way.
        __loam 2y ago
        The app is better for viewing the content you paid for. Patreon is not just for subscribing to creators. They also deliver content. This isn't hard to understand.
        aphantastic 2y ago
        What does the app do that <video> <img> and <audio> cannot?
        yunwal 2y ago
        Any sort of audio/video control for sure, which is a substantial portion of patreon content. Also, if you want to support offline content, it's nearly impossible to do it in a browser.
        aphantastic 2y ago
        What’s wrong with the native html <video> tag? Or <audio>? I use those for everything and i’ve never been unable to control media.
        kelnos 2y ago
        And whose fault is that? Apple's! Hell, Jobs originally wanted there to be no iPhone SDK, and for everyone to create webapps. Man, that would have been a better world. Initially it would have sucked, but the mobile web platform would have improved so much faster, and APIs for doing native-y things would have been complete and useful 15 years ago.
        talldayo 2y ago
        > Has the world entirely forgotten about websites? Perhaps, if only the segment of the population forced to use a browser that didn't support PWAs for over a decade. I can see why they would forget about websites over a long enough period of time.
  - danShumway 2y ago
    > Apple has also made clear that if creators on Patreon continue to use unsupported billing models or disable transactions in the iOS app, we will be at risk of having the entire app removed from their App Store.
    - jirf_dev 2y ago
      This is confusing to me, does this mean Amazon, Netflix, and Spotify will be in violation as well? None of these companies allow subscription or digital goods transactions in their iOS apps. I’m not sure why Patreon couldn’t replace the “subscribe” button with a “wishlist” button within the iOS app. They could add a link that opens your wishlist in the browser too. It turns what should be 1 click into 3, but it seems far more sensible than accepting the 30% fee.
      - danShumway 2y ago
        Admittedly, I also wondered about this. I'm taking Patreon at their word (for now), but I would welcome Apple making some kind of statement indicating that Patreon is allowed to disable payments in the app. And if it is true that they're not allowed to disable payments, I would also love to know what's special about Amazon, Netflix, and Spotify (other than their size) that would allow them to "get away" with the same behavior.
- raverbashing 2y ago
  Or drop the app. And explain to everybody why you're doing this Patreon works fine in a web browser.
  - wpm 2y ago
    And watch loads of creators lose a good portion of their livelihood and leave the platform?
    - jasonjayr 2y ago
      If they drop the app, then they are free to send users directly to the web site.
    - fkyoureadthedoc 2y ago
      There's a decent chance they are about to watch the same thing
    - shagie 2y ago
      One could create a web app based Pateron and use the web based push notifications. https://imgur.com/a/JccxAIs https://imgur.com/a/JccxAIs for the process for how to do this on an iPhone. The challenge (as always) is accessibility and discoverability. The functionality is all there.
      - kelnos 2y ago
        > The challenge (as always) is accessibility and discoverability. And that's the challenge that actually matters, and is more or less insurmountable on iOS.
    - matwood 2y ago
      This is part of Apple's argument why they think they are owed 30%. They have built and nurture the most affluent set of mobile users with a CC ready to charge. A company leaving Android is ho hum, but leaving iOS is business ending. How valuable then is it to be on iOS? 30%? I'm not making a judgement on right or wrong, but I see many people just thinking about infrastructure and not realizing Apple sees iOS user base as one that would not exist without them. And, they want to get paid for access.
- Izkata 2y ago
  Putting it in quotes is misleading, they are actually being forced: > Apple has also made clear that if creators on Patreon continue to use unsupported billing models or disable transactions in the iOS app, we will be at risk of having the entire app removed from their App Store.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - diggan 2y ago
    > Putting it in quotes is misleading, they are actually being forced: They're not literally forced, they have a choice: A) abide by the rules of the platform or B) leave the platform. I agree that it's shitty by Apple, but if you start playing the game (being on the AppStore), don't be surprised when you have to continue playing the game by adjusting how you do things.
    - bangaladore 2y ago
      Let's not forget that if Apple created something called "Apple Creators", they would instantly gain 100% of the market share because there would be no fee (assuming feature parity) This forcing apps to use your payment platform through extortion is anti-competitive. Full stop.
      - gumby271 2y ago
        Don't they already have this for podcast subscriptions? I feel like this is a direct move to get more customers over to Apple Podcasts, which can now be 30% cheaper for customers.
        bangaladore 2y ago
        I'm unsure, but I'm pretty sure Spotify had this exact issue recently and decided to make payments via only their website. But, IIRC, Apple makes it nearly impossible to offer off-app payments without breaking their TOS, including linking to them (don't quote me on that).

Patreon doesn't currently and doesn't want to us Apple's infrastructure. They're being "forced" to do so, hence this post.

dirtsoc 2y ago
they should have just gone the same route as amazon with ebooks and removed the ability to subscribe in the app.
- g15jv2dp 2y ago
  If you can't pay money to content makers, what's the point of a patreon app? It's the whole purpose.
  - HDThoreaun 2y ago
    Seeing the content you paid for when using a non mobile device?
    - aphantastic 2y ago
      I’ve happily been using Patreon for years and didn’t even know an app existed. Has the world entirely forgotten about websites?
      - HDThoreaun 2y ago
        Native apps are better than websites on mobile. I know you know this.
        diggan 2y ago
        What do you do on Patreon that only a application could do, and not a website? I subscribe to a bunch of Patreons, and most of them are videos (which I can view on a website) or they're downloadable assets I use my PC for accessing anyways, wouldn't make sense on mobile no matter app or website.
        aphantastic 2y ago
        For what? Clicking a “pay this person $5 a month” button? Maybe commenting on a post or watching a video? I don’t see how the platform could affect that in any significant way.
        __loam 2y ago
        The app is better for viewing the content you paid for. Patreon is not just for subscribing to creators. They also deliver content. This isn't hard to understand.
        aphantastic 2y ago
        What does the app do that <video> <img> and <audio> cannot?
        yunwal 2y ago
        Any sort of audio/video control for sure, which is a substantial portion of patreon content. Also, if you want to support offline content, it's nearly impossible to do it in a browser.
        aphantastic 2y ago
        What’s wrong with the native html <video> tag? Or <audio>? I use those for everything and i’ve never been unable to control media.
        kelnos 2y ago
        And whose fault is that? Apple's! Hell, Jobs originally wanted there to be no iPhone SDK, and for everyone to create webapps. Man, that would have been a better world. Initially it would have sucked, but the mobile web platform would have improved so much faster, and APIs for doing native-y things would have been complete and useful 15 years ago.
      - talldayo 2y ago
        > Has the world entirely forgotten about websites? Perhaps, if only the segment of the population forced to use a browser that didn't support PWAs for over a decade. I can see why they would forget about websites over a long enough period of time.
- danShumway 2y ago
  > Apple has also made clear that if creators on Patreon continue to use unsupported billing models or disable transactions in the iOS app, we will be at risk of having the entire app removed from their App Store.
  - jirf_dev 2y ago
    This is confusing to me, does this mean Amazon, Netflix, and Spotify will be in violation as well? None of these companies allow subscription or digital goods transactions in their iOS apps. I’m not sure why Patreon couldn’t replace the “subscribe” button with a “wishlist” button within the iOS app. They could add a link that opens your wishlist in the browser too. It turns what should be 1 click into 3, but it seems far more sensible than accepting the 30% fee.
    - danShumway 2y ago
      Admittedly, I also wondered about this. I'm taking Patreon at their word (for now), but I would welcome Apple making some kind of statement indicating that Patreon is allowed to disable payments in the app. And if it is true that they're not allowed to disable payments, I would also love to know what's special about Amazon, Netflix, and Spotify (other than their size) that would allow them to "get away" with the same behavior.
raverbashing 2y ago
Or drop the app. And explain to everybody why you're doing this Patreon works fine in a web browser.
- wpm 2y ago
  And watch loads of creators lose a good portion of their livelihood and leave the platform?
  - jasonjayr 2y ago
    If they drop the app, then they are free to send users directly to the web site.
  - fkyoureadthedoc 2y ago
    There's a decent chance they are about to watch the same thing
  - shagie 2y ago
    One could create a web app based Pateron and use the web based push notifications. https://imgur.com/a/JccxAIs https://imgur.com/a/JccxAIs for the process for how to do this on an iPhone. The challenge (as always) is accessibility and discoverability. The functionality is all there.
    - kelnos 2y ago
      > The challenge (as always) is accessibility and discoverability. And that's the challenge that actually matters, and is more or less insurmountable on iOS.
  - matwood 2y ago
    This is part of Apple's argument why they think they are owed 30%. They have built and nurture the most affluent set of mobile users with a CC ready to charge. A company leaving Android is ho hum, but leaving iOS is business ending. How valuable then is it to be on iOS? 30%? I'm not making a judgement on right or wrong, but I see many people just thinking about infrastructure and not realizing Apple sees iOS user base as one that would not exist without them. And, they want to get paid for access.
Izkata 2y ago
Putting it in quotes is misleading, they are actually being forced: > Apple has also made clear that if creators on Patreon continue to use unsupported billing models or disable transactions in the iOS app, we will be at risk of having the entire app removed from their App Store.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- diggan 2y ago
  > Putting it in quotes is misleading, they are actually being forced: They're not literally forced, they have a choice: A) abide by the rules of the platform or B) leave the platform. I agree that it's shitty by Apple, but if you start playing the game (being on the AppStore), don't be surprised when you have to continue playing the game by adjusting how you do things.
  - bangaladore 2y ago
    Let's not forget that if Apple created something called "Apple Creators", they would instantly gain 100% of the market share because there would be no fee (assuming feature parity) This forcing apps to use your payment platform through extortion is anti-competitive. Full stop.
    - gumby271 2y ago
      Don't they already have this for podcast subscriptions? I feel like this is a direct move to get more customers over to Apple Podcasts, which can now be 30% cheaper for customers.
      - bangaladore 2y ago
        I'm unsure, but I'm pretty sure Spotify had this exact issue recently and decided to make payments via only their website. But, IIRC, Apple makes it nearly impossible to offer off-app payments without breaking their TOS, including linking to them (don't quote me on that).