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This problem was treated with a bit more sophistication by Harvards Lieberman in „A story of the human body“ and the corresponding nature article [0] establishi
by Zacharias030 2y ago
This problem was treated with a bit more sophistication by Harvards Lieberman in „A story of the human body“ and the corresponding nature article [0] establishing persistence hunting as an ancestoral hunting technique of homo sapien.
See figure 2b for the plot you were looking for. Running faster is less efficient but only slightly so and walking is a U-shaped curve like most mammal gaites.
It shows that in contrast to most animals, the efficiency curve of humans for running speeds is extremely flat, ie, we are about equally efficient at many different speeds, while the kind of game that we hunted was not.
The discrepancy allowed us to find a speed where we could exhaust the animal after 10-30km (as I understand) provided we were also excellent trackers.
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature03052.epdf?sharing_token=Ke6yvZKEVvMSKfUfm73bRdRgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0O52bUtxu-KLGqf6fqgad3OSqMqJaMeK92lj8PCB6XF1Qyn_5NI3MevfRHMNt3k02KmOyi4lzTf25oCQ2IVJCCPw6fi1slyYdmvI2Lq7aWg7XbWSbkOR64ywDxfVHwBO-jtvtUW18XS_S2tNVsHXnu7cio0yNj9BUxvU_9644LdsuKX7HUlTbxe0_kJLVwf-K8WuGIXOhYcsBqwthDp2ZSN44xVeT4kKegfb_sXC6qD_Q%3D%3D&tracking_referrer=www.nature.com https://www.nature.com/articles/nature03052.epdf?sharing_tok...
- Mistletoe 2y agoI'm a runner and have had a weird question, could a runner defeat a larger human in this way? Like if I found myself in mortal combat with The Rock at 260 lbs after his steroids cycle, could I just repeatedly run away and follow him (while staying out of range) until he tired out and then bonk him on the head with a rock, like a tired antelope? (No offense to The Rock, seems like a great guy) Might explain why we aren't all musclebound and huge? Although I'm sure food availability had more influence.
- underlipton 2y agoLayman: skeletal muscles are expensive to maintain in terms of caloric and protein/water intake, and larger muscles are less efficient at dumping the heat that their use generates because volume increases faster than exposed surface area with muscular hypertrophy. If food and body temperature regulation were more immediate concerns than violent conflict, then the ability to gas out your opponent was probably less influential.
- gowld 2y agoWhat if the threw a rock at you? He has longer range and a stronger lift.
- klyrs 2y agoHe's literally The Rock. He's not gonna throw his fam
- psb217 2y agoThe Rock would be bad at persistence hunting, but it would be weird if he was so susceptible to persistence hunting. What incentive does he have to fatigue himself in this scenario? When it's you vs animal, the animal runs from you since if you catch it you kill it. The Rock could just chill and say bring it on. If you were sufficiently mobile and clever, maybe you could prevent him from reaching food and water until he's weak enough for you to attack.
- dmicah 2y agoUnfortunately the hunter might find himself with nowhere left to turn, stuck between the Rock and a hard place.
- JackMorgan 2y agoThis punchline is so good I wonder if you and the grandparent poster coordinated this. Bravo.
- gherkinnn 2y agoMake him angry (by publicly confronting him about his juicing or something) and have him want to chase you down.
- dyauspitr 2y agoJuicing is gaining a lot of legitimacy lately. Not that it’s any better for you at this point but there are a lot of bodybuilders publicly talking about it. Its being normalized pretty rapidly which is a definitely not a good thing.
- yencabulator 2y agoIf you knew how to use a sling, and The Rock didn't, you could try to make The Rock chase you by staying out of his range and slinging rocks at him. Reverse persistence hunting.
- wordpad25 2y agoI think the term you're looking for is endurance. Endurance advantage is a big factor in many sports and offers a viable strategy. The issue with your suggestion is that it's not uncommon for massive heavy athletes to also have excellent endurance too, so even if they may not catch you, they would still be the one stalking you.
- IncreasePosts 2y agoWhy would he chase you if he could never catch you? He would just sit down and try to stay awake longer than you and then bop you on the head.
- chasd00 2y agoi don't think it would work on human vs human because the other one would go find a tool to work in their advantage. In this case, The Rock would get a gun and a car and then you're SOL.
- geph2021 2y agoI think this sort of technique is used in boxing and MMA: play a good defense, stay out of trouble, and let the aggressor exhaust themselves until later rounds when you feel you may have a fitness advantage. I think there were good examples of this in the early days of MMA, when there was much less, if any, specialized training, techniques and strategy. It's probably much less effective now, since a well trained aggressor will know how to pace themselves too.
- sjducb 2y agoLetting your opponent gas out is an effective strategy.
- munificent 2y agoSomewhat related anecdote: When a friend of mine was in college, he got into some sort of amicable debate with another friend and they decided the way to resolve it was through a boxing match. Neither of them had an ounce of boxing experience. My friend realized before the match that just holding the gloves up and swinging punches is more tiring than you'd think. So the strategy he settled on was to just put his guard up and not attack at all. He let his friend take a bunch of swings at him until eventually the poor guy was literally too tired to hold his arms up. Then my friend started swinging and quickly won.
- cossatot 2y agoWas your friend perhaps Muhommed Ali, fighting George Foreman in Zaire? Or perhaps Homer Simpson fighting Drederick Tatum?
- tomjakubowski 2y agoI think you mean Homer Simpson vs. Boxcar Bob.
- deathmachine 2y agoI've thought about this kind of scenario, bizarrely, a decent amount recently. Long story short, assuming your opponent is so strong that once you're in arms' reach, you're done, you have to be faster than said opponent not only at endurance running but also at every distance between. E.g. assuming you start off somewhat close to them, you have to sprint faster and transition into a faster endurance running pace, and at no point can you be so much slower than them at a given distance that they're able to regain any ground you made on them at a different speed.
- saagarjha 2y agoAnd what if he has a decoy snail?
- darth_avocado 2y agoIt is called persistence hunting and practiced by humans & animals: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting
- hilux 2y agoWhat you're suggesting seems similar to rope-a-dope. Absolutely a successful strategy.
- akira2501 2y agoIs your name Fabian, by chance?
- comicjk 2y agoAnother apt ancient example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Sphacteria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Sphacteria Lightly-armed Athenians trapped heavily-armed Spartans in hilly terrain, and instead of fighting them in a phalanx, wore them down with a long day of hit-and-run. Hundreds of exhausted Spartans were taken alive, which was a massive scandal for the Spartan reputation at the time.
- shrubble 2y agoThe reason it works against deer is that they can only get rid of a certain amount of heat; once they reach their maximum temperature they are not able to continue moving. The Rock, being human is able to exhaust at least as much heat as you, taking away from your advantage.
- shiroiushi 2y ago>The Rock, being human is able to exhaust at least as much heat as you, taking away from your advantage. I'm not so sure about this. The Rock has only slightly more surface area than I do (due to his larger physical size); it's not a huge amount more, certainly not double. However, he has much more muscle mass than I do, probably more than double. Therefore, his surface-area/muscle-mass ratio should be lower, meaning he should have less ability to exhaust heat than me. (Muscle mass is what generates all the heat.) Therefore, over time, he should get overheated more quickly than me, though of course this depends entirely on our relative physical activity while we're trying to fight or avoid the other.
- shrubble 2y agoHowever people who exercise a lot, sweat more efficiently; so I figure it should be roughly equal.
- shiroiushi 2y agoThen instead of comparing non-pro-athlete me with The Rock, let's pick some professional runner or cyclist.
- burnte 2y agoI'm a big guy, 6'5", 255 (aiming for 240), plenty of muscle, and when I was a young kid and teen I cycled a _lot_. I kept cycling through my 20s, and did a tremendous amount of walking too for enjoyment. At my peak I could run a mile in just under 7 minutes. I did the 50 and 100m sprints freshman year of high school for track and won a fair amount. I was on the swim team. And despite all of that, yes, the cross country kids had more stamina than me, although I could beat them in sprints. So, anecdotally, yeah, me vs a runner and the runner takes off? If I don't catch them within a couple of hundred yards, they're gone. I can walk or cycle at a medium pace all day, but distance runners will beat me in marathons every single time. In caveman times I'd have been the closer, the guy who catches up to the runners and finishes off the bear or tiger or elephant when it's exhausted.
- shiroiushi 2y agoWasn't there a Game of Thrones episode which had this exact scenario? As I recall, it didn't go well for the runner guy.
- JadeNB 2y agoProbably https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mountain_and_the_Viper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mountain_and_the_Viper
- alberth 2y agoA corollary might be military special forces. The biggest most muscular individuals rarely make it through training eval. Even though you need to run with 70lb rucksack, it’s typically the fit & trim person (lighter body weight) who succeeds.
- CrimpCity 2y agoShort answer no. This is because what gets exhausted is aerobic capacity. When you get within striking range The Rock will still have access to fast twitch muscles & some reduced amount of glycogen for energy release. This would probably be enough to grab you and choke you out. Basically the Mountain vs the Viper fight from game of thrones. If you were of similar size then yes. Basically being smaller really sucks in a fight. So if you can reasonably deflect the Rocks wrestling & grappling offensive you could rope a dope him causing him to gas out and then win. Higher weight MMA fighters & boxers use this tactic all the time. They let their opponent “punch themselves out” and then get off their own offense.
- fumar 2y agoWouldn’t the endurance preferred human eventually reach a safe distance and not have to fight?
- ithinkso 2y agoI don't doubt the results but I cannot imagine how that can be true, I'm not fit but I've had many 20+hours hikes to the high mountain peaks but if I run to a bus stop when I'm late I'm tired beyond belief and I just cannot maintain running, have to stop
- crazygringo 2y agoI think it assumes you run regularly and are therefore fit for running. The same way if you lie in bed for a month you're not going to be doing 20 hour hikes either. Fitness isn't a one-dimensional thing -- our muscles adapt efficiently to our specific activities and only our specific activities. So comparing the efficiency of walking and running only makes sense for someone who is already well-adapted to both.
- jaggederest 2y agoYou are probably sprinting to the bus stop, not running. Running would be below your aerobic threshold, for however well you're trained, and thus should not leave you exhausted or wiped out. The general rule of thumb is that if you can't have a conversation, you're exceeding your aerobic threshold and so are exceeding your pace. Training increases what that pace is, but ultimately no (land?) mammal can exceed their aerobic threshold for long, since there are limits to stored oxygen. Cetaceans and pinnipeds might be an interesting exception.
- taeric 2y agoI started trying to pay attention and do some "zone 2" training recently. I came to the sad realization that a moderate jog pushes me well over zone 2. :(
- RachelM71948937 2y ago[dead]
- lowdest 2y agoSame here! Have you found a solution? I was pretty happy with 3 miles 3-4 times per week, 10 to 11 minute pace, but apparently for me that's pushing too hard according to zone training. I tried going much slower, and even then my HR raises more slowly, but eventually gets way up there. Alternating my slowest possible jog and walking has taken all the fun out of running for the time being.
- aaron695 2y ago[dead]
- yencabulator 2y agoI've read the anatomical feature that allows humans a wider range of comfortable speeds with one base gait is bipedalism, and four-legged gaits have narrower speed ranges. This is easy to observe for dog lovers. Walk with a medium size (say 50-60 lbs) dog off leash and you'll notice the dog has to choose between a gait that's a little slow for a human walk or a gait that'd be a fast walk for a human -- but you can still match either of those without much trouble. If you choose not to match your walk to the dog's speed, the dog will alternate between the two gaits to roughly match your speed.
- Zacharias030 2y agoI find this a very interesting observation! (Don’t have a dog) Note though, that the paper describes the different speeds that are possible when walking with equal efficiency to be quite narrow in comparison to running. There is this related saying that „the fastest marathoners burn just as much calories as the slowest to complete 42km, they just do it in a much shorter time“. This kind of range is not available to walking.
- yencabulator 2y agoYes, a human walking faster to match the faster dog gait is much more tiring than walking at your own pace. And that slightly faster gait is still a relatively slow pace for a healthy dog, they're usually happy to go faster! However, it's possible for a human to match speeds with the same base gait, whereas the dog gaits seem more limited to their narrow ideal speeds.