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StreetComplete is fun for casual contributions, but what OSM really needs is good local mappers. You can tell when a place has local mappers updating and monito

StreetComplete is fun for casual contributions, but what OSM really needs is good local mappers. You can tell when a place has local mappers updating and monitoring changes in the real world. Even just taking care of the coming and going of shops is really useful. People who visit your area using apps like OsmAnd and OrganicMaps use that data!

xethos 2y ago
I cannot describe [0] my pleasure and satisfaction when, visiting Germany, we found an icecream shop closed. We'd stopped by with the assumption Google Maps would have the correct hours; they did not, and we carried on without icecream. OSM, on the other hand, correctly showed the shop as closed for the day. [0] I can't, but my fiancee used the words "impossibly smug"
- dtech 2y ago
  I mean, both rely on community contributions for this sort of thing, so it feels weird to be smug about this... It just depends on who decided to put the correct hours in.
  - xethos 2y ago
    "Smug" was mostly tongue in cheek. More than anything, it was a breath of fresh air seeing OSM, a product so heavily reliant on it's community, beating out one of the most well-funded corporations on our planet. Google has satellite views, they run their own network of vehicles to gather streetview data at a planetary scale, they follow every Android user (with Google Services installed) to know popular locations, new and closed businesses, likely opening hours, travel times, and more. They (at one point) pushed users to update store information, and then (from everything I've heard) charge out the ass for embedding a Google Map view. I am ecstatic that we have a free-as-in-beer, donation and corporate sponsorship funded, open-for-all map that not only can go blow-for-blow with this absolute behenoth, but in this case actually won. So while "smug" may be overselling it, "thrilled" would not be
    - mrln 2y ago
      Is OSM not free-as-in-freedom?
      - xethos 2y ago
        AFAIK it is, but I thought I'd stick to claims I was all but certain of when posting from mobile and (because of that) not fact-checking Bit of an ironic one to leave out though, considering my preferences with most of the software I use and enjoy.
  - mathstuf 2y ago
    "Smug" is what I would give the Google Maps response that I submitted when we came across a store closed due to wrong hours (in Seattle). I sent a picture of the hours plate and the response was "nah, we think Google Maps is correct here". I stopped submitting error corrections to Google after that.
- netsharc 2y ago
  When a huge highway bridge collapsed in Genoa, I checked OSM a few hours later, and someone had already updated the road segment as permanently closed Video has clips of the bridge falling and aftermath: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53628580 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53628580
  - ygra 2y ago
    Google cheats here, though. They were able to show a recently completed bridge as completed simply by the fact that traffic was passing over it. OSM still had it within half an hour of opening, though.
    - Freak_NL 2y ago
      The other way around is where OpenStreetMap is faster though. With Google a road which is closed (or gone) for a longer while means someone has to report it and Google employees verify it. Doing this automatically based on traffic dropping to zero is not really possible, because the algorithm doesn't know why traffic is rerouted or for how long. This can take a while depending on the number of people reporting it to Google. OpenStreetMap mappers can act autonomously much faster (errors are sometimes made, but often picked up and reverted just as fast for high profile stuff). Google actually fucks up royally when a road below the level of a motorway/freeway is closed and formally withdrawn from public use, but still sees some traffic (by people illegally using it and people with legitimate goals like construction workers). There is a road near me where this is the case. Google will happily route cars over a road where one of the two lanes is in use as a soil depot for the nearby housing developments, and gates on both sides block the road. Those gates are shoved aside or bypassed by driving through the grass by a handful of simpletons. A bit of observation during a walk there showed me two cars passing there illegally; a postal worker and a power utility guy. Two types of road users who likely use Google Maps quite a lot, and drive up the virtual traffic there. On OpenStreetMap this road is simply closed and limited to private use (i.e., the construction workers hauling soil), and has been for a number of years now.
      - AlpineG 2y ago
- kaba0 2y ago
  Google has been atrocious all across Europe ever since Covid. They used to have (maybe still do?) this local guide thingy, but this empathetic contribution doesn’t feel good for a for profit company.
  - michaelt 2y ago
    At one point Google developed a spam problem with map contributions, IIRC. Some assholes worked out it was pretty profitable to (for example) create a '24 hour emergency locksmith' pins all over the country, with no real physical presence, then pass the business on to a real locksmith a few towns over, while taking a cut. Once people find it's profitable to provide fake user contributions and you have to start policing them, I imagine the value of user contributions drops significantly...
- carlosjobim 2y ago
  It's the business owners responsibility to publish their opening hours on Google Maps, Apple Maps and on the web. Most don't give a damn about their own business, at most putting their hours on Google Maps if they remember.
SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
I do this local mapping, and I also use StreetComplete. I find it's not one of the other, it's "Why not both?" e.g. new coffee shop opened down the road? I'll take a picture of it on my phone, go home and open https://www.openstreetmap.org/ https://www.openstreetmap.org/, click "edit" and add it, along with info from the phone photo (Shop name, Address, phone number, and a website if I can find one). The next time I'm nearby, StreetComplete will prompt me for other key info such as opening hours. They compliment each other. On the one hand, the full OSM experience is much richer than StreetComplete. On the other hand, StreetComplete is a gateway drug to it, and also a useful accessory to it.
- linker3000 2y ago
  This is how I work. Having a dog means that I can record updates and additions as I walk varied routes around the area. Updating the map later using its Web interface is very satisfying and much more worthy than doomscrolling through social media (which I don't really do anyway).
andrepd 2y ago
Re: shops/businesses, it would be nice if we could find somehow a way of having businesses themselves update their details: just basic stuff like opening hours and contacts. Not sure what's the solution for this though. One half of the solution certainly is just a convenient (web) UI for this, minimal friction just go to this website, enter your info, and click okay. But the other half is even making businesses aware that this is a thing. Mailing flyers with a QR code? x)
- SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
  Absolutely. In Theory a business could make an OSM account and just go and update their own details on www.openstreetmap.org. From my point of view this is easy. But as we have seen by the experience of how bad restaurant websites are, this is a significant barrier for these businesses. I'm not knocking them: I couldn't run a restaurant; it's just different skills and experience. It's on the software people to make the software easy enough for restaurant people to use.
ygra 2y ago
But surveying shops coming and going works really well with StreetComplete as well (check the places overlay). Besides, the app is such a wonderful gateway drug to OSM that even if the only benefit at the end of the day from most mappers were road surfaces and building levels, there's still a few people who become good mappers beyond StreetComplete. I started with SC in March 2021. By now nearly no quests remain in my village, nearly every building has proper building and roof colours, I have far more changesets by now with JOSM and I strive for at least one changeset every day. I won't touch bus routes, though. They're scary.
pacbard 2y ago
Local mapping is surprisingly difficult. I believe that the commercial products (i.e., Google Maps) are viable only because there are strong incentives for people (e.g., business owners, property owners) to submit edits as they are the main way that people search for them. Without that, you get into a limbo where you have data but it's not the most updated one. By the way, not even government agencies have good geo data, even when they should. I needed up to date address information for work, so I bought a map from my local county assessor's office. In my mind, the assessor should have the most recent data on properties, as their main mission is to collect taxes annually. I was wrong. Their data is about 4 to 5 years wrong, with whole "new" subdivisions missing from their inventory. Google Maps kind of has them on the map; I believe that their geolocation data comes from real estate platforms when new houses are on the market. OSM is about 10 years behind in my area. I am submitting edits as I find them. If someone has a better idea on where to find address data, please let me know.
- tacostakohashi 2y ago
  The assessor's mission is all about parcels and tax lots though. For that purpose, it's not 4 to 5 years wrong, it is current, but they don't care what the "address" is. Not all parcels have an address, or are on a street. The only addresses they care about are where to send the bill.
- maxerickson 2y ago
  OpenStreetMap barely has any users in many areas. It seems likely enough that a modest amount of traction would lead to people noticing out of date information much more quickly.
  - freyfogle 2y ago
    be the change you want. Start fixing your area.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
      That's how I approach OSM: I can't fix the world, but I can keep my own local patch up to date. Other people do other things, and that's great too.
hnarn 2y ago
> Even just taking care of the coming and going of shops is really useful. This is exactly why I contribute to OSM and add/remove/fix my favorite restaurants, bars etc. in the city I live in. I feel like I'm doing three nice things at a time: helping local companies, making travel better for tourists, and sticking it to $the_man[1] [1]: whatever corporation is currently responsible for sucking up data on what beer I drink, what pizza I eat, and what clothes I wear, so they can cross-references it with my haircut, circle of friends and lidar-scanned calves measurements from my robo-vacuum while i'm taking a shit to sell me keyrings and usb-cables from china
roeles 2y ago
I tried editing my area to reflect road closures due to construction. It was surprisingly difficult. Spent an hour searching online. My edit was denied by the reviewer (I used the wrong method) and the closure was not reflected in the map. Google maps was a one minute process and it was reflected in the map after about an hour. OSM stayed outdated for weeks. From this experience I am tempted to conclude that OSM needs to make mapping easier.
- ygra 2y ago
  I'm sorry that you had a bad experience adding data. Road closures are a somewhat advanced topic and differ in tagging depending on how long the road is expected to be closed. For short closures it's not recommended to actually mark the map as unpassable unconditionally because some offline routers may be stuck with months old data, depending on how often they update. So short closures would be tagged as motor_vehicle:conditional=no @ (date range) while longer closures would use something like highway=construction construction=tertiary opening_date=2025-01 That being said, I'm surprised you ended up in the review process, as there isn't really one per se. Just a flag in the changeset that's typically not observed unless some people actively look for that (although new account + first changeset + review flag may have been picked up by someone). Some projects like HOTOSM (the Humanitarian OSM Project) do have a mandated review process and it seems to work fairly well most of the time. So basically, your edit should have been visible on the map around a minute after making it, but was apparently reverted later. Unless you actually destroyed something I'd say that's not very typical. Reverts are somewhat rare and contributors are trusted to some degree. As for specific tagging situations, there's probably always something to improve. StreetComplete works really well for keeping track of what's there, other apps have their own niche, and there may not be one that specifically targets road closures.

xethos 2y ago

I cannot describe [0] my pleasure and satisfaction when, visiting Germany, we found an icecream shop closed. We'd stopped by with the assumption Google Maps would have the correct hours; they did not, and we carried on without icecream. OSM, on the other hand, correctly showed the shop as closed for the day. [0] I can't, but my fiancee used the words "impossibly smug"

dtech 2y ago
I mean, both rely on community contributions for this sort of thing, so it feels weird to be smug about this... It just depends on who decided to put the correct hours in.
- xethos 2y ago
  "Smug" was mostly tongue in cheek. More than anything, it was a breath of fresh air seeing OSM, a product so heavily reliant on it's community, beating out one of the most well-funded corporations on our planet. Google has satellite views, they run their own network of vehicles to gather streetview data at a planetary scale, they follow every Android user (with Google Services installed) to know popular locations, new and closed businesses, likely opening hours, travel times, and more. They (at one point) pushed users to update store information, and then (from everything I've heard) charge out the ass for embedding a Google Map view. I am ecstatic that we have a free-as-in-beer, donation and corporate sponsorship funded, open-for-all map that not only can go blow-for-blow with this absolute behenoth, but in this case actually won. So while "smug" may be overselling it, "thrilled" would not be
  - mrln 2y ago
    Is OSM not free-as-in-freedom?
    - xethos 2y ago
      AFAIK it is, but I thought I'd stick to claims I was all but certain of when posting from mobile and (because of that) not fact-checking Bit of an ironic one to leave out though, considering my preferences with most of the software I use and enjoy.
- mathstuf 2y ago
  "Smug" is what I would give the Google Maps response that I submitted when we came across a store closed due to wrong hours (in Seattle). I sent a picture of the hours plate and the response was "nah, we think Google Maps is correct here". I stopped submitting error corrections to Google after that.
netsharc 2y ago
When a huge highway bridge collapsed in Genoa, I checked OSM a few hours later, and someone had already updated the road segment as permanently closed Video has clips of the bridge falling and aftermath: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53628580 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53628580
- ygra 2y ago
  Google cheats here, though. They were able to show a recently completed bridge as completed simply by the fact that traffic was passing over it. OSM still had it within half an hour of opening, though.
  - Freak_NL 2y ago
    The other way around is where OpenStreetMap is faster though. With Google a road which is closed (or gone) for a longer while means someone has to report it and Google employees verify it. Doing this automatically based on traffic dropping to zero is not really possible, because the algorithm doesn't know why traffic is rerouted or for how long. This can take a while depending on the number of people reporting it to Google. OpenStreetMap mappers can act autonomously much faster (errors are sometimes made, but often picked up and reverted just as fast for high profile stuff). Google actually fucks up royally when a road below the level of a motorway/freeway is closed and formally withdrawn from public use, but still sees some traffic (by people illegally using it and people with legitimate goals like construction workers). There is a road near me where this is the case. Google will happily route cars over a road where one of the two lanes is in use as a soil depot for the nearby housing developments, and gates on both sides block the road. Those gates are shoved aside or bypassed by driving through the grass by a handful of simpletons. A bit of observation during a walk there showed me two cars passing there illegally; a postal worker and a power utility guy. Two types of road users who likely use Google Maps quite a lot, and drive up the virtual traffic there. On OpenStreetMap this road is simply closed and limited to private use (i.e., the construction workers hauling soil), and has been for a number of years now.
    - AlpineG 2y ago
kaba0 2y ago
Google has been atrocious all across Europe ever since Covid. They used to have (maybe still do?) this local guide thingy, but this empathetic contribution doesn’t feel good for a for profit company.
- michaelt 2y ago
  At one point Google developed a spam problem with map contributions, IIRC. Some assholes worked out it was pretty profitable to (for example) create a '24 hour emergency locksmith' pins all over the country, with no real physical presence, then pass the business on to a real locksmith a few towns over, while taking a cut. Once people find it's profitable to provide fake user contributions and you have to start policing them, I imagine the value of user contributions drops significantly...
carlosjobim 2y ago
It's the business owners responsibility to publish their opening hours on Google Maps, Apple Maps and on the web. Most don't give a damn about their own business, at most putting their hours on Google Maps if they remember.

SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago

I do this local mapping, and I also use StreetComplete. I find it's not one of the other, it's "Why not both?" e.g. new coffee shop opened down the road? I'll take a picture of it on my phone, go home and open https://www.openstreetmap.org/ https://www.openstreetmap.org/, click "edit" and add it, along with info from the phone photo (Shop name, Address, phone number, and a website if I can find one). The next time I'm nearby, StreetComplete will prompt me for other key info such as opening hours. They compliment each other. On the one hand, the full OSM experience is much richer than StreetComplete. On the other hand, StreetComplete is a gateway drug to it, and also a useful accessory to it.

linker3000 2y ago
This is how I work. Having a dog means that I can record updates and additions as I walk varied routes around the area. Updating the map later using its Web interface is very satisfying and much more worthy than doomscrolling through social media (which I don't really do anyway).

andrepd 2y ago

Re: shops/businesses, it would be nice if we could find somehow a way of having businesses themselves update their details: just basic stuff like opening hours and contacts. Not sure what's the solution for this though. One half of the solution certainly is just a convenient (web) UI for this, minimal friction just go to this website, enter your info, and click okay. But the other half is even making businesses aware that this is a thing. Mailing flyers with a QR code? x)

SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
Absolutely. In Theory a business could make an OSM account and just go and update their own details on www.openstreetmap.org. From my point of view this is easy. But as we have seen by the experience of how bad restaurant websites are, this is a significant barrier for these businesses. I'm not knocking them: I couldn't run a restaurant; it's just different skills and experience. It's on the software people to make the software easy enough for restaurant people to use.

ygra 2y ago

But surveying shops coming and going works really well with StreetComplete as well (check the places overlay). Besides, the app is such a wonderful gateway drug to OSM that even if the only benefit at the end of the day from most mappers were road surfaces and building levels, there's still a few people who become good mappers beyond StreetComplete. I started with SC in March 2021. By now nearly no quests remain in my village, nearly every building has proper building and roof colours, I have far more changesets by now with JOSM and I strive for at least one changeset every day. I won't touch bus routes, though. They're scary.

pacbard 2y ago

Local mapping is surprisingly difficult. I believe that the commercial products (i.e., Google Maps) are viable only because there are strong incentives for people (e.g., business owners, property owners) to submit edits as they are the main way that people search for them. Without that, you get into a limbo where you have data but it's not the most updated one. By the way, not even government agencies have good geo data, even when they should. I needed up to date address information for work, so I bought a map from my local county assessor's office. In my mind, the assessor should have the most recent data on properties, as their main mission is to collect taxes annually. I was wrong. Their data is about 4 to 5 years wrong, with whole "new" subdivisions missing from their inventory. Google Maps kind of has them on the map; I believe that their geolocation data comes from real estate platforms when new houses are on the market. OSM is about 10 years behind in my area. I am submitting edits as I find them. If someone has a better idea on where to find address data, please let me know.

tacostakohashi 2y ago
The assessor's mission is all about parcels and tax lots though. For that purpose, it's not 4 to 5 years wrong, it is current, but they don't care what the "address" is. Not all parcels have an address, or are on a street. The only addresses they care about are where to send the bill.
maxerickson 2y ago
OpenStreetMap barely has any users in many areas. It seems likely enough that a modest amount of traction would lead to people noticing out of date information much more quickly.
- freyfogle 2y ago
  be the change you want. Start fixing your area.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
    That's how I approach OSM: I can't fix the world, but I can keep my own local patch up to date. Other people do other things, and that's great too.

hnarn 2y ago

> Even just taking care of the coming and going of shops is really useful. This is exactly why I contribute to OSM and add/remove/fix my favorite restaurants, bars etc. in the city I live in. I feel like I'm doing three nice things at a time: helping local companies, making travel better for tourists, and sticking it to $the_man[1] [1]: whatever corporation is currently responsible for sucking up data on what beer I drink, what pizza I eat, and what clothes I wear, so they can cross-references it with my haircut, circle of friends and lidar-scanned calves measurements from my robo-vacuum while i'm taking a shit to sell me keyrings and usb-cables from china

roeles 2y ago

I tried editing my area to reflect road closures due to construction. It was surprisingly difficult. Spent an hour searching online. My edit was denied by the reviewer (I used the wrong method) and the closure was not reflected in the map. Google maps was a one minute process and it was reflected in the map after about an hour. OSM stayed outdated for weeks. From this experience I am tempted to conclude that OSM needs to make mapping easier.

ygra 2y ago
I'm sorry that you had a bad experience adding data. Road closures are a somewhat advanced topic and differ in tagging depending on how long the road is expected to be closed. For short closures it's not recommended to actually mark the map as unpassable unconditionally because some offline routers may be stuck with months old data, depending on how often they update. So short closures would be tagged as motor_vehicle:conditional=no @ (date range) while longer closures would use something like highway=construction construction=tertiary opening_date=2025-01 That being said, I'm surprised you ended up in the review process, as there isn't really one per se. Just a flag in the changeset that's typically not observed unless some people actively look for that (although new account + first changeset + review flag may have been picked up by someone). Some projects like HOTOSM (the Humanitarian OSM Project) do have a mandated review process and it seems to work fairly well most of the time. So basically, your edit should have been visible on the map around a minute after making it, but was apparently reverted later. Unless you actually destroyed something I'd say that's not very typical. Reverts are somewhat rare and contributors are trusted to some degree. As for specific tagging situations, there's probably always something to improve. StreetComplete works really well for keeping track of what's there, other apps have their own niche, and there may not be one that specifically targets road closures.