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I have been using this to build an app[0] for the last couple of years and I want to say that it has been a pleasure to use, there are some wrinkles but overall

by tmpfs 2y ago

I have been using this to build an app[0] for the last couple of years and I want to say that it has been a pleasure to use, there are some wrinkles but overall I have been very happy with the experience. Upgrading from v1 to v2 was not too difficult and v2 is a significant upgrade with lots of useful features, massively improved codegen experience and support for tokio async were the big gamechangers for me. Writing all the app business logic in Rust and using Dart as the front-end works out really well. I know Flutter/Dart doesn't get much love here on HN but in my opinion I think it's much easier to reason about than a system like React which I think is the wrong level of abstraction compared to Flutter's render the entire widget tree approach. Massive thanks to @fzyzcjy for all the work on FRB, great job! [0]: https://saveoursecrets.com https://saveoursecrets.com

fzyzcjy 2y ago
You are welcome, and happy to hear it works for you!
MrJohz 2y ago
> I know Flutter/Dart doesn't get much love here on HN but in my opinion I think it's much easier to reason about than a system like React which I think is the wrong level of abstraction compared to Flutter's render the entire widget tree approach. Could you expand on this a bit? My impression was that Flutter and React had relatively similar approaches to components, but I haven't had much experience with Flutter yet, so I'm interested to hear your experiences!
- mdhb 2y ago
  I’m too lazy right now to get into all of the specifics but just wanted to drop a quick note to say that I’ve been doing web development since 1997 and the difference between React and Flutter is like day and night. It’s genuinely hard for me to overstate the general quality of life improvements both from the developer experience and the overall quality of the apps I can produce in any given time frame. A big part of the reason for that is Dart is itself hands down the nicest language I’ve ever worked with. The team behind it got real serious when it comes to tooling and language design and everytime I have to go back to TypeScript I feel like I’m trying to run with a 50kg backpack on.
- satvikpendem 2y ago
  They do have similar approaches, I'm not sure what the above commenter is saying as both work basically the same (with React class components at least). Flutter doesn't have hooks but they're addressing that via macros next year, and anyway today there are packages like flutter_hooks and ReArch that enable hook-like functionality in Flutter today.
- tmpfs 2y ago
  At a basic level Flutter renders the entire widget tree and caches components that don't need to re-render rather than applying a diff of changes to the DOM. But it's really the Flutter/Dart API and widgets that make it much easier to work with, if I need to load some data asynchronously I use a `FutureBuilder`, if I need a stream of events I can use `StreamBuilder` etc. Compared to Reacts state, hooks, memo, effects etc. you end up with code that is far easier to reason about what is rendering when and why. Oh and the real killer feature is Flutters hot reload experience, it's easily the best DX I've seen for GUI work. As another comment mentioned it really is like night and day. I recommend giving it a try.
  - MrJohz 2y ago
    I don't quite understand the point about rendering, unless you mean it in the Angular sense (i.e. on every state update, the whole app gets rendered, and elements are updated to the new state during that render). But I can imagine that the API can be easier. I think React handles state fairly well, but as soon as that state needs to interact with things outside the React world (http requests, continuously updating data, etc) then the current abstractions don't quite feel right.
    - beanjuiceII 2y ago
      react and flutter are pretty much the same thing, i do both for a living i am not sure what this person is going on about
    - fngjdflmdflg 2y ago
      >i.e. on every state update, the whole app gets rendered Yes, that's basically correct: >Calling setState notifies the framework that the internal state of this object has changed in a way that might impact the user interface in this subtree, which causes the framework to schedule a build for this State object.[0] The `build` method rebuilds the entire widget tree. So "the whole app" does not necessarily get re-rendered, only whatever is in the same widget as the changed state or below it, although potentially that can be the whole screen. Flutter also uses an algorithm to detect unchanged widgets and reuse them,[1] but conceptually the whole thing is re-rendered on state change. [0] https://api.flutter.dev/flutter/widgets/State/setState.html https://api.flutter.dev/flutter/widgets/State/setState.html [1] https://docs.flutter.dev/resources/inside-flutter#linear-reconciliation https://docs.flutter.dev/resources/inside-flutter#linear-rec...
- nu11ptr 2y ago
  React = one small piece of a very large required ecosystem (HTML + CSS + Javascript + NPM + React + Vite + ???) Flutter = a UI framework for mobile/desktop/web (Flutter + Dart) On top of the purpose built nature, nearly everything is a Widget, even layout/styling making it pretty easy to grok very quickly.
  - amelius 2y ago
    I personally prefer using many smaller components over using a large opinionated framework. But I'm not a big fan of React, so this could be better and worth a try.
    - tensor 2y ago
      It's less a "large opinionated framework" and more "fewer components overall. There is no HTML/CSS for example, it goes direct from Dart (equivalent to JS) to the Widget rendering system." Dart has its own build tools and package system that work well. You can still pull in dart libraries as you need them. Dart is also a much better language than JS. I can't tell you how many days I've lost to react/JS build tooling issues. A single problem can easily eat an entire day. With flutter/dart I haven't had a single issue like that.
  - synergy20 2y ago
    flutter does a so so job on desktop and it's web version is wasm based. the job market for dart flutter is a drop while react is the lake. react with electron, react native, react itself together are still the only ones production ready cross platform GUI with widest adoption
    - mdhb 2y ago
      comments about job markets aside… The first and the third paragraphs really haven’t been true for some time now. Flutter is absolutely production ready as a cross platform GUI.
      - pzo 2y ago
satvikpendem 2y ago
But, Flutter and React work the same way where UI is a function of state. In fact, Flutter started off imperatively but after React was released, they changed it to be declarative, and now Android via Jetpack Compose is changing to be declarative, all on the same general principle. I also use packages like flutter_hooks or ReArch which make encapsulating state much easier, I couldn't stand using initState and not forgetting to dispose for each piece of functionality.
nu11ptr 2y ago
> I know Flutter/Dart doesn't get much love here on HN but in my opinion I think it's much easier to reason about than a system like React which I think is the wrong level of abstraction compared to Flutter's render the entire widget tree approach. Yeah I really like Flutter/Dart. I had less an issue with React itself than I did the whole HTML/CSS/Javascript ecosystem and tooling. Flutter is a breath of fresh air in that it is a purpose built ecosystem for UIs. You load the SDK and are ready to go with features like hot reload out of the box. No need for gamut of tools and to figure out how they all work together. Also, no need for HTML + CSS! I think the only reason it isn't more popular is because we have such a huge # of frontend devs already trained on HTML/CSS/JS, as Flutter is a lot simpler out of the gate, and much easier for traditional GUI paradigm people IMO.
bmitc 2y ago
Flutter is not bad, but I hesitate diving into it based upon who controls it. Using a Google product feels like you're in constant threat of it just disappearing. It also still has all the remnants of mobile and fingers and not desktop and mouse. Support for improving this is non-existent in my experience.
- seabrookmx 2y ago
  Why conflate Google's customer facing products with their OSS technology contributions? It seems a weird comparison to make, as if their sales and marketing departments are the ones behind technology decisions. Angular came out of Google and hasn't gone anywhere. Also GoLang.. even GWT was supported well past its prime and is now maintained by the community. What evidence is there that they abandon languages and frameworks?
  - epcoa 2y ago
    > Angular came out of Google and hasn't gone anywhere. I think you actually answered your own question. The difference is that Angular was already a hugely adopted and relatively simple piece of technology (the difference between a JavaScript framework and all the moving parts and pieces of Flutter/Dart is huge) Since the latter doesn’t have anywhere near the investment outside Google it’s not a fair comparison. The fear that if Google drops it, it will die are legitimate.
    - seabrookmx 2y ago
      What about the GoLang comparison? > The fear that if Google drops it, it will die are legitimate I'm not trying to argue against the fact it would die or not. I'm mainly trying to understand why people think Google would abandon it. Abandoning Google Reader and abandoning Flutter or GoLang are _not_ the same in my eyes, and I can't think of any cases where Google has abandoned a technology rather than a consumer facing product in this fashion.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
samstave 2y ago
Just want to say, your site is very aesthetically pleasing. I hate blue websites (FB Blue) -- but the deep tones that SOS uses and contrasts are really appealing. So is the app, subscribed.
nu11ptr 2y ago
Looks nice. What UI design system did you use here if I can ask?

by tmpfs 2y ago

fzyzcjy 2y ago

You are welcome, and happy to hear it works for you!

MrJohz 2y ago

> I know Flutter/Dart doesn't get much love here on HN but in my opinion I think it's much easier to reason about than a system like React which I think is the wrong level of abstraction compared to Flutter's render the entire widget tree approach. Could you expand on this a bit? My impression was that Flutter and React had relatively similar approaches to components, but I haven't had much experience with Flutter yet, so I'm interested to hear your experiences!

mdhb 2y ago
I’m too lazy right now to get into all of the specifics but just wanted to drop a quick note to say that I’ve been doing web development since 1997 and the difference between React and Flutter is like day and night. It’s genuinely hard for me to overstate the general quality of life improvements both from the developer experience and the overall quality of the apps I can produce in any given time frame. A big part of the reason for that is Dart is itself hands down the nicest language I’ve ever worked with. The team behind it got real serious when it comes to tooling and language design and everytime I have to go back to TypeScript I feel like I’m trying to run with a 50kg backpack on.
satvikpendem 2y ago
They do have similar approaches, I'm not sure what the above commenter is saying as both work basically the same (with React class components at least). Flutter doesn't have hooks but they're addressing that via macros next year, and anyway today there are packages like flutter_hooks and ReArch that enable hook-like functionality in Flutter today.
tmpfs 2y ago
At a basic level Flutter renders the entire widget tree and caches components that don't need to re-render rather than applying a diff of changes to the DOM. But it's really the Flutter/Dart API and widgets that make it much easier to work with, if I need to load some data asynchronously I use a `FutureBuilder`, if I need a stream of events I can use `StreamBuilder` etc. Compared to Reacts state, hooks, memo, effects etc. you end up with code that is far easier to reason about what is rendering when and why. Oh and the real killer feature is Flutters hot reload experience, it's easily the best DX I've seen for GUI work. As another comment mentioned it really is like night and day. I recommend giving it a try.
- MrJohz 2y ago
  I don't quite understand the point about rendering, unless you mean it in the Angular sense (i.e. on every state update, the whole app gets rendered, and elements are updated to the new state during that render). But I can imagine that the API can be easier. I think React handles state fairly well, but as soon as that state needs to interact with things outside the React world (http requests, continuously updating data, etc) then the current abstractions don't quite feel right.
  - beanjuiceII 2y ago
    react and flutter are pretty much the same thing, i do both for a living i am not sure what this person is going on about
  - fngjdflmdflg 2y ago
    >i.e. on every state update, the whole app gets rendered Yes, that's basically correct: >Calling setState notifies the framework that the internal state of this object has changed in a way that might impact the user interface in this subtree, which causes the framework to schedule a build for this State object.[0] The `build` method rebuilds the entire widget tree. So "the whole app" does not necessarily get re-rendered, only whatever is in the same widget as the changed state or below it, although potentially that can be the whole screen. Flutter also uses an algorithm to detect unchanged widgets and reuse them,[1] but conceptually the whole thing is re-rendered on state change. [0] https://api.flutter.dev/flutter/widgets/State/setState.html https://api.flutter.dev/flutter/widgets/State/setState.html [1] https://docs.flutter.dev/resources/inside-flutter#linear-reconciliation https://docs.flutter.dev/resources/inside-flutter#linear-rec...
nu11ptr 2y ago
React = one small piece of a very large required ecosystem (HTML + CSS + Javascript + NPM + React + Vite + ???) Flutter = a UI framework for mobile/desktop/web (Flutter + Dart) On top of the purpose built nature, nearly everything is a Widget, even layout/styling making it pretty easy to grok very quickly.
- amelius 2y ago
  I personally prefer using many smaller components over using a large opinionated framework. But I'm not a big fan of React, so this could be better and worth a try.
  - tensor 2y ago
    It's less a "large opinionated framework" and more "fewer components overall. There is no HTML/CSS for example, it goes direct from Dart (equivalent to JS) to the Widget rendering system." Dart has its own build tools and package system that work well. You can still pull in dart libraries as you need them. Dart is also a much better language than JS. I can't tell you how many days I've lost to react/JS build tooling issues. A single problem can easily eat an entire day. With flutter/dart I haven't had a single issue like that.
- synergy20 2y ago
  flutter does a so so job on desktop and it's web version is wasm based. the job market for dart flutter is a drop while react is the lake. react with electron, react native, react itself together are still the only ones production ready cross platform GUI with widest adoption
  - mdhb 2y ago
    comments about job markets aside… The first and the third paragraphs really haven’t been true for some time now. Flutter is absolutely production ready as a cross platform GUI.
    - pzo 2y ago

satvikpendem 2y ago

But, Flutter and React work the same way where UI is a function of state. In fact, Flutter started off imperatively but after React was released, they changed it to be declarative, and now Android via Jetpack Compose is changing to be declarative, all on the same general principle. I also use packages like flutter_hooks or ReArch which make encapsulating state much easier, I couldn't stand using initState and not forgetting to dispose for each piece of functionality.

nu11ptr 2y ago

> I know Flutter/Dart doesn't get much love here on HN but in my opinion I think it's much easier to reason about than a system like React which I think is the wrong level of abstraction compared to Flutter's render the entire widget tree approach. Yeah I really like Flutter/Dart. I had less an issue with React itself than I did the whole HTML/CSS/Javascript ecosystem and tooling. Flutter is a breath of fresh air in that it is a purpose built ecosystem for UIs. You load the SDK and are ready to go with features like hot reload out of the box. No need for gamut of tools and to figure out how they all work together. Also, no need for HTML + CSS! I think the only reason it isn't more popular is because we have such a huge # of frontend devs already trained on HTML/CSS/JS, as Flutter is a lot simpler out of the gate, and much easier for traditional GUI paradigm people IMO.

bmitc 2y ago

Flutter is not bad, but I hesitate diving into it based upon who controls it. Using a Google product feels like you're in constant threat of it just disappearing. It also still has all the remnants of mobile and fingers and not desktop and mouse. Support for improving this is non-existent in my experience.

seabrookmx 2y ago
Why conflate Google's customer facing products with their OSS technology contributions? It seems a weird comparison to make, as if their sales and marketing departments are the ones behind technology decisions. Angular came out of Google and hasn't gone anywhere. Also GoLang.. even GWT was supported well past its prime and is now maintained by the community. What evidence is there that they abandon languages and frameworks?
- epcoa 2y ago
  > Angular came out of Google and hasn't gone anywhere. I think you actually answered your own question. The difference is that Angular was already a hugely adopted and relatively simple piece of technology (the difference between a JavaScript framework and all the moving parts and pieces of Flutter/Dart is huge) Since the latter doesn’t have anywhere near the investment outside Google it’s not a fair comparison. The fear that if Google drops it, it will die are legitimate.
  - seabrookmx 2y ago
    What about the GoLang comparison? > The fear that if Google drops it, it will die are legitimate I'm not trying to argue against the fact it would die or not. I'm mainly trying to understand why people think Google would abandon it. Abandoning Google Reader and abandoning Flutter or GoLang are _not_ the same in my eyes, and I can't think of any cases where Google has abandoned a technology rather than a consumer facing product in this fashion.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

samstave 2y ago

Just want to say, your site is very aesthetically pleasing. I hate blue websites (FB Blue) -- but the deep tones that SOS uses and contrasts are really appealing. So is the app, subscribed.

nu11ptr 2y ago

Looks nice. What UI design system did you use here if I can ask?