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Thank you. This stood out to me: "They expressed that they specifically wanted to work with us as a woman-owned, queer- and POC-driven engineering firm to deve

Thank you. This stood out to me: "They expressed that they specifically wanted to work with us as a woman-owned, queer- and POC-driven engineering firm to develop an electronic badge with a gaming element for this year’s conference." I would have expected the core criteria to be ability to execute on time. Choosing an engineering firm based on the race, gender, or sexual orientation of the owner is foolish, and DEF CON is ultimately to blame for introducing superfluous criteria and missing the core criteria.

kcmastrpc 2y ago
[flagged]
cj 2y ago
That sentence seems like the most irrelevant part of all of what I’ve read. They could have easily rephrased that sentence to simply say “They expressed interest in working with us” and the point they’re making is the same.
- echoangle 2y ago
  Isn’t the implication of the sentence that they were chosen specifically for those properties and wouldn’t have been chosen otherwise?
  - superb_dev 2y ago
    The implication is that they were chosen because of that, but not that this was the only qualification. It could easily be that multiple teams looked qualified during bidding for the job and that this was the distinguishing factor.
    - simpaticoder 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - Dylan16807 2y ago
        > No other qualification was mentioned. That's because "ability to do the project" is a given. It is always a requirement, outside of specific corruption scenarios.
        zarathustreal 2y ago
        [flagged]
        Dylan16807 2y ago
        Yes, as long as nobody's being paid off by Big Gay.
        Y_Y 2y ago
        Ask HN: How can I get on the payroll of Big Gay?
- A4ET8a8uTh0 2y ago
  And yet, a party to this conflict thought it was a relevant piece of information to the audience. Now, the fact that OP noted it as interesting is not completely without merit. After all, interested party certainly thought it was worth to mention.
  - firesteelrain 2y ago
    It’s supposed to provoke an emotional response
    - squigz 2y ago
      In who, I wonder? Most people I see reacting emotionally appear to be opposed to even mentioning that.
      - firesteelrain 2y ago
        To those sympathetic to awarding contracts to those with that societal lean. It’s irrelevant to their ability to perform a contract for DEFCON. If that was never mentioned it would have never been a point at all. If it was meant to be a point then it can make people think that those with that societal lean are poor performers. It’s not helping their cause.
- smsm42 2y ago
  If they have to reach for idpol at the start to make their case, my immediate suspicion is the case is not that strong.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
foundry27 2y ago
It’s concerning to me that this has been downvoted so heavily. Obviously as a private group DEF CON’s organizers have every right to contract with whatever companies they want to. In the same way, obviously the private individuals paying DEF CON’s organizers have every right to criticize them when they treat their contractors so poorly. However , I think it’s short-sighted and self-defeating to suggest that they shouldn’t ALSO have the right to criticize their choice of companies they work with when it impacts the quality of what they’re paying for. This is not a sexist, anti-POC, or anti-trans criticism. Deciding on contractors for the reasons they claimed they did would be illegal in the public sector under France’s anti-discrimination laws, under Germany’s Grundgesetz, under Japan’s GPA, under the UK’s Equality Act in many cases, etc.
- akira2501 2y ago
  There are _much_ better ways to help the causes of Women, People of Color, or People of Different Sexual Orientations then making it a criteria of who you happen to create small one time contracts with.
- lnxg33k1 2y ago
  >> Obviously as a private group DEF CON’s organizers have every right to contract with whatever companies they want to. If I remember correctly there are some laws about discrimination by sexual orientation etc To explain myself, try to imagine that they said to have been picked because white cis men
- the__alchemist 2y ago
  In the US Federal contract system, these preferences are formalized; has been for decades. It's a heavily-exploited game by those who play by its rules. Basic classes are "Service disabled veteran owned" "minority owned" "women owned" etc. I think "veteran owned" counts a bit too.
wang_li 2y ago
In Entropic's statement they say: >and, especially, keeping a community eye on law enforcement and conference security to help ensure our friend Dmitry’s safety in the last 48 hours. Has there been anything in all this that would suggest anyone was in danger at the conference? This kind of comment about safety is pretty standard among very progressive communities anytime anyone disagrees with them.
- cdchn 2y ago
  >Has there been anything in all this that would suggest anyone was in danger at the conference? Depends on how much you danger you consider someone making unwanted physical contact and restraining your movements.
  - wang_li 2y ago
    I don't consider you trespassing and the people who have the authority to remove you removing you as danger. Additionally, it's arguable he gave permission when they told him to leave or they'd remove him and he told them to remove him.
    - cdchn 2y ago
      I'd consider a bunch of untrained goons giving me the bum's rush a danger regardless of the circumstances.
    - busterarm 2y ago
      But their statement was just that they removed him from the talk without banning him from the conference, which turns out in practice to not be correct. Not only did they have law enforcement intervene in his removal, but goons continued to threaten his removal and he was banned from the discord.
OCASMv2 2y ago
[flagged]
ipaddr 2y ago
This makes DEF CON look foolish and past it's prime. You would think technical requirements would be the only criteria used but I guess they wanted this project to make political gains with a certain community instead of just making badges.
jhaand 2y ago
DEFCON did not do proper estimation, risk analysis and due diligence with ordering these badges. Also if the cat design and other things were done by the Defcon orga and the electronics by EE, then this already sounds like a complicated mess. If I look at the Defcon30 badge from 2022. It's the same thing. A small random engineering shop is selected and gets the order. And you get a nice little badge that can do stuff. For the Dutch hacker camps we look a bit more long term and the engineers and designers have been part of the core team since 2017. And for 2025 we're already well underway. https://badge.team https://badge.team
- zavec 2y ago
  I'm definitely going to have to look into these Dutch events, not only did Defcon feel like much less value for money this year (and all the badge drama) but the Netherlands is way easier for me to get to as well.
  - jhaand 2y ago
    The Dutch event is WHY2025. https://why2025.org https://why2025.org There's a nice overview website with all the events around The Netherlands. https://hackeropuit.nl/ https://hackeropuit.nl/
    - CalRobert 2y ago
      Thank you!!!! I moved to NL last year and have been missing this.
- rasz 2y ago
  >did not do proper estimation, risk analysis and due diligence How can you say that when badges were on time and working at the end of the day?
  - jhaand 2y ago
    I would say that it seems a miracle there were working badges on time. Both EE and Defcon gave everything they could to make this happen. But this breakdown in trust, too short timescales, using a new chip, not backing it up with extra funding and choosing this engineering company remains Defcons responsibility for running the project and realising a product. Without full payment of the development costs, the IP for the PCB probably was still owned by EE and they could have stopped production. This shit show could have been prevented.
mindslight 2y ago
In 2024, that statement doesn't really indicate much of anything. Traditionally, interfacing with the business world involved retaining an underemployed white guy who would wax poetic about the virtues of playing golf [0] or owning a boat. Now the trends have shifted to professing a different type of identity politics. The vectoralists with the old fashioned motif have even landed on their feet, spawning a cottage industry of bemoaning how unfair the world is. Plus ça change. [0] the boring version without moving obstacles, PVC pipes, or fiberglass dinosaurs - further adding insult to injury
joemazerino 2y ago
Another productivity victim to the woke movement.
darksim905 2y ago
when did they actually start working on it? ToyMakers starts their work right after a conference ends to prepare for the next conference. The logistics and scale even for several hundred badges is immense.
account42 2y ago
It's also an odd thing to bring up in their statement.

kcmastrpc 2y ago

[flagged]

cj 2y ago

That sentence seems like the most irrelevant part of all of what I’ve read. They could have easily rephrased that sentence to simply say “They expressed interest in working with us” and the point they’re making is the same.

echoangle 2y ago
Isn’t the implication of the sentence that they were chosen specifically for those properties and wouldn’t have been chosen otherwise?
- superb_dev 2y ago
  The implication is that they were chosen because of that, but not that this was the only qualification. It could easily be that multiple teams looked qualified during bidding for the job and that this was the distinguishing factor.
  - simpaticoder 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - Dylan16807 2y ago
      > No other qualification was mentioned. That's because "ability to do the project" is a given. It is always a requirement, outside of specific corruption scenarios.
      - zarathustreal 2y ago
        [flagged]
        Dylan16807 2y ago
        Yes, as long as nobody's being paid off by Big Gay.
        Y_Y 2y ago
        Ask HN: How can I get on the payroll of Big Gay?
A4ET8a8uTh0 2y ago
And yet, a party to this conflict thought it was a relevant piece of information to the audience. Now, the fact that OP noted it as interesting is not completely without merit. After all, interested party certainly thought it was worth to mention.
- firesteelrain 2y ago
  It’s supposed to provoke an emotional response
  - squigz 2y ago
    In who, I wonder? Most people I see reacting emotionally appear to be opposed to even mentioning that.
    - firesteelrain 2y ago
      To those sympathetic to awarding contracts to those with that societal lean. It’s irrelevant to their ability to perform a contract for DEFCON. If that was never mentioned it would have never been a point at all. If it was meant to be a point then it can make people think that those with that societal lean are poor performers. It’s not helping their cause.
smsm42 2y ago
If they have to reach for idpol at the start to make their case, my immediate suspicion is the case is not that strong.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

foundry27 2y ago

It’s concerning to me that this has been downvoted so heavily. Obviously as a private group DEF CON’s organizers have every right to contract with whatever companies they want to. In the same way, obviously the private individuals paying DEF CON’s organizers have every right to criticize them when they treat their contractors so poorly. However , I think it’s short-sighted and self-defeating to suggest that they shouldn’t ALSO have the right to criticize their choice of companies they work with when it impacts the quality of what they’re paying for. This is not a sexist, anti-POC, or anti-trans criticism. Deciding on contractors for the reasons they claimed they did would be illegal in the public sector under France’s anti-discrimination laws, under Germany’s Grundgesetz, under Japan’s GPA, under the UK’s Equality Act in many cases, etc.

akira2501 2y ago
There are _much_ better ways to help the causes of Women, People of Color, or People of Different Sexual Orientations then making it a criteria of who you happen to create small one time contracts with.
lnxg33k1 2y ago
>> Obviously as a private group DEF CON’s organizers have every right to contract with whatever companies they want to. If I remember correctly there are some laws about discrimination by sexual orientation etc To explain myself, try to imagine that they said to have been picked because white cis men
the__alchemist 2y ago
In the US Federal contract system, these preferences are formalized; has been for decades. It's a heavily-exploited game by those who play by its rules. Basic classes are "Service disabled veteran owned" "minority owned" "women owned" etc. I think "veteran owned" counts a bit too.

wang_li 2y ago

In Entropic's statement they say: >and, especially, keeping a community eye on law enforcement and conference security to help ensure our friend Dmitry’s safety in the last 48 hours. Has there been anything in all this that would suggest anyone was in danger at the conference? This kind of comment about safety is pretty standard among very progressive communities anytime anyone disagrees with them.

cdchn 2y ago
>Has there been anything in all this that would suggest anyone was in danger at the conference? Depends on how much you danger you consider someone making unwanted physical contact and restraining your movements.
- wang_li 2y ago
  I don't consider you trespassing and the people who have the authority to remove you removing you as danger. Additionally, it's arguable he gave permission when they told him to leave or they'd remove him and he told them to remove him.
  - cdchn 2y ago
    I'd consider a bunch of untrained goons giving me the bum's rush a danger regardless of the circumstances.
  - busterarm 2y ago
    But their statement was just that they removed him from the talk without banning him from the conference, which turns out in practice to not be correct. Not only did they have law enforcement intervene in his removal, but goons continued to threaten his removal and he was banned from the discord.

OCASMv2 2y ago

[flagged]

ipaddr 2y ago

This makes DEF CON look foolish and past it's prime. You would think technical requirements would be the only criteria used but I guess they wanted this project to make political gains with a certain community instead of just making badges.

jhaand 2y ago

DEFCON did not do proper estimation, risk analysis and due diligence with ordering these badges. Also if the cat design and other things were done by the Defcon orga and the electronics by EE, then this already sounds like a complicated mess. If I look at the Defcon30 badge from 2022. It's the same thing. A small random engineering shop is selected and gets the order. And you get a nice little badge that can do stuff. For the Dutch hacker camps we look a bit more long term and the engineers and designers have been part of the core team since 2017. And for 2025 we're already well underway. https://badge.team https://badge.team

zavec 2y ago
I'm definitely going to have to look into these Dutch events, not only did Defcon feel like much less value for money this year (and all the badge drama) but the Netherlands is way easier for me to get to as well.
- jhaand 2y ago
  The Dutch event is WHY2025. https://why2025.org https://why2025.org There's a nice overview website with all the events around The Netherlands. https://hackeropuit.nl/ https://hackeropuit.nl/
  - CalRobert 2y ago
    Thank you!!!! I moved to NL last year and have been missing this.
rasz 2y ago
>did not do proper estimation, risk analysis and due diligence How can you say that when badges were on time and working at the end of the day?
- jhaand 2y ago
  I would say that it seems a miracle there were working badges on time. Both EE and Defcon gave everything they could to make this happen. But this breakdown in trust, too short timescales, using a new chip, not backing it up with extra funding and choosing this engineering company remains Defcons responsibility for running the project and realising a product. Without full payment of the development costs, the IP for the PCB probably was still owned by EE and they could have stopped production. This shit show could have been prevented.

mindslight 2y ago

In 2024, that statement doesn't really indicate much of anything. Traditionally, interfacing with the business world involved retaining an underemployed white guy who would wax poetic about the virtues of playing golf [0] or owning a boat. Now the trends have shifted to professing a different type of identity politics. The vectoralists with the old fashioned motif have even landed on their feet, spawning a cottage industry of bemoaning how unfair the world is. Plus ça change. [0] the boring version without moving obstacles, PVC pipes, or fiberglass dinosaurs - further adding insult to injury

joemazerino 2y ago

Another productivity victim to the woke movement.

darksim905 2y ago

when did they actually start working on it? ToyMakers starts their work right after a conference ends to prepare for the next conference. The logistics and scale even for several hundred badges is immense.

account42 2y ago

It's also an odd thing to bring up in their statement.