5 ms·

The way they disambiguate between the two options feels like it would have been a ton of work to figure out and implement... and for what purpose? I don't under

The way they disambiguate between the two options feels like it would have been a ton of work to figure out and implement... and for what purpose? I don't understand the user story here. How hard is it to type the long version?

MOARDONGZPLZ 2y ago
As a user, I don’t want to have to type the full option name every time I use it.
- forrestthewoods 2y ago
  As a user I almost never use short flags because it’s super confusing and inscrutable. But I admit I’m probably in the minority on this!
  - jonnycomputer 2y ago
    I use them for simple commands I use all the time when I do interactively. If its a script its long-form all the way. Explicit is better than implicit...
- nerdponx 2y ago
  GNU solved this problem a long time ago by distinguishing -v and -V.
- collingreen 2y ago
  As a user, I want to feel in control of the behavior and be able to learn through doing because the output is reliable. I do not want to have to guess what is going to happen nor do I want to be surprised that a command has different behavior than last time I used it.
- Flop7331 2y ago
  Your shell should be smart enough autocomplete it anyway.
  - BiteCode_dev 2y ago
    You don't always choose your shell.
    - Flop7331 2y ago
      You don't say. This thread whiffed badly on is vs. ought.
  - LoganDark 2y ago
    Who autocompletes flags? Even as a Fish user, I'm stuck with not-Fish often enough that I can't afford to let it become part of my muscle memory. Before you say "Bash can autocomplete flags" I don't think I've ever encountered a single third-party shell command that actually packages proper completions. (Some Rust commands that use `clap` for argument parsing do something to install completions after the first run, but in my experience this is not particularly reliable)
    - TheCleric 2y ago
      Plus while it’s very convenient for tools that support autocomplete of their parameters, but not all do. So sometimes you just fall in the habit of assuming they don’t.
      - LoganDark 2y ago
        My experience with flag autocomplete is like 90% it completing a huge filename that I then have to backspace annoyedly. Not entirely sure which shell I encountered it on but wow. I just can't afford to rely on it because of cases like those.
        moring 2y ago
        This makes me wonder why shells don't support a simple "undo". Though I think there will be a UI conflict between "undo autocomplete" / "undo paste" / other stuff that edits the current command line, and "undo the last command" which would need much deeper integration with the tools that get run.
- WD-42 2y ago
  If you are typing instead of using tab auto complete or shell history then that’s on you.
- amelius 2y ago
  > As a user, I don’t want to have to type the full option name every time I use it. You don't have to on the command-line, but if you're writing a script then the unwritten rule is that you use the full option name. (Too bad this isn't enforced)
mananaysiempre 2y ago
> a ton of work to figure out and implement Not really? while ((opt = getopt(...)) >= 0) switch (opt) { ... case 'v': if (!action) { action = VERIFY; break; } verbose++; break; ... } (A followup post clarifies that a -v before a different action flag does not retroactively turn into “verbose”; in any case that’s also not hard to do. To be clear, both possibilities suck, I just disagree they’re difficult to implement.)
zombiwoof 2y ago
Apple engineers know they are the best and don’t care what anyone else says
- amelius 2y ago
  If they know they are the best, then why do they keep doing slavishly what management tells them instead of building the best products?
- smt88 2y ago
  Apple may have the best hardware engineers, but Apple software is absolute garbage and I miss Android and/or Windows whenever I have to use it. It is astonishing how buggy and bad iOS is.

MOARDONGZPLZ 2y ago

As a user, I don’t want to have to type the full option name every time I use it.

forrestthewoods 2y ago
As a user I almost never use short flags because it’s super confusing and inscrutable. But I admit I’m probably in the minority on this!
- jonnycomputer 2y ago
  I use them for simple commands I use all the time when I do interactively. If its a script its long-form all the way. Explicit is better than implicit...
nerdponx 2y ago
GNU solved this problem a long time ago by distinguishing -v and -V.
collingreen 2y ago
As a user, I want to feel in control of the behavior and be able to learn through doing because the output is reliable. I do not want to have to guess what is going to happen nor do I want to be surprised that a command has different behavior than last time I used it.
Flop7331 2y ago
Your shell should be smart enough autocomplete it anyway.
- BiteCode_dev 2y ago
  You don't always choose your shell.
  - Flop7331 2y ago
    You don't say. This thread whiffed badly on is vs. ought.
- LoganDark 2y ago
  Who autocompletes flags? Even as a Fish user, I'm stuck with not-Fish often enough that I can't afford to let it become part of my muscle memory. Before you say "Bash can autocomplete flags" I don't think I've ever encountered a single third-party shell command that actually packages proper completions. (Some Rust commands that use `clap` for argument parsing do something to install completions after the first run, but in my experience this is not particularly reliable)
  - TheCleric 2y ago
    Plus while it’s very convenient for tools that support autocomplete of their parameters, but not all do. So sometimes you just fall in the habit of assuming they don’t.
    - LoganDark 2y ago
      My experience with flag autocomplete is like 90% it completing a huge filename that I then have to backspace annoyedly. Not entirely sure which shell I encountered it on but wow. I just can't afford to rely on it because of cases like those.
      - moring 2y ago
        This makes me wonder why shells don't support a simple "undo". Though I think there will be a UI conflict between "undo autocomplete" / "undo paste" / other stuff that edits the current command line, and "undo the last command" which would need much deeper integration with the tools that get run.
WD-42 2y ago
If you are typing instead of using tab auto complete or shell history then that’s on you.
amelius 2y ago
> As a user, I don’t want to have to type the full option name every time I use it. You don't have to on the command-line, but if you're writing a script then the unwritten rule is that you use the full option name. (Too bad this isn't enforced)

mananaysiempre 2y ago

> a ton of work to figure out and implement Not really? while ((opt = getopt(...)) >= 0) switch (opt) { ... case 'v': if (!action) { action = VERIFY; break; } verbose++; break; ... } (A followup post clarifies that a -v before a different action flag does not retroactively turn into “verbose”; in any case that’s also not hard to do. To be clear, both possibilities suck, I just disagree they’re difficult to implement.)

zombiwoof 2y ago

Apple engineers know they are the best and don’t care what anyone else says

amelius 2y ago
If they know they are the best, then why do they keep doing slavishly what management tells them instead of building the best products?
smt88 2y ago
Apple may have the best hardware engineers, but Apple software is absolute garbage and I miss Android and/or Windows whenever I have to use it. It is astonishing how buggy and bad iOS is.