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As opposed to SpaceX with literally no history of human rated spaceflight? Neither of these companies have earned reduced standards... Edit: To clarify, this a

As opposed to SpaceX with literally no history of human rated spaceflight? Neither of these companies have earned reduced standards... Edit: To clarify, this applies to the certification process, not current performance.

cptskippy 2y ago
They've launched 12 crew missions in the last 44 months putting 46 people in orbit.
- itishappy 2y ago
  Right, but first they certified it for human-rated spaceflight by scrutinizing it very closely and testing it very rigorously.
  - cptskippy 2y ago
    They certified a modification to an existing spacecraft that was already proven. Starliner is a bespoke from scratch vehicle.
    - itishappy 2y ago
      Are you suggesting they did or should have relaxed the human-rated spaceflight certification standards for Crew Dragon?
      - cptskippy 2y ago
        No, they actually have made them go through more rigor than Starliner has been subject to. What I'm saying is that Dragon was built upon an existing proven platform. The effort needed to convert the cargo module for human spaceflight is less than the effort Boeing needed to create a module from scratch. AND SpaceX still had to go through more rigor with Crew Dragon than what Boeing has had to do with Starliner. The certification standards for Starliner have been reduced compared to Dragon, and Boeing is asking for them to be reduced further still.
cwillu 2y ago
You're aware that SpaceX routinely performs crewed missions, right? There's been at least a dozen now.
- itishappy 2y ago
  How many of those happened before testing and certification was completed?
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - cwillu 2y ago
    If you count the ones from before certification was complete, then there was one more than I counted. A baker's dozen instead of an even dozen launches. https://www.nasa.gov/humans-in-space/nasa-and-spacex-complete-certification-of-first-human-rated-commercial-space-system/ https://www.nasa.gov/humans-in-space/nasa-and-spacex-complet... “The Crew Dragon, including the Falcon 9 rocket and associated ground systems, is the first new, crew spacecraft to be NASA-certified for regular flights with astronauts since the space shuttle nearly 40 years ago. Several critical events paved the way for this achievement, including grounds tests, simulations, uncrewed flight tests and NASA’s SpaceX Demo-2 test flight with astronauts Robert Behnken and Douglas Hurley earlier this year.” [from 2020] Dragon did test flights demonstrating that the systems worked, Starliner has so far only done test flights demonstrating that the systems do not, plus a pinky promise that it'll work the next time. We do not know if, say, the abort system works, because the only time it was subjected to a full test, it failed. This is not a matter of SpaceX not having experience building human-rated craft and trying to get unearned credit for competence, this is a matter of Boeing trying to use their history to get unearned credit.
    - itishappy 2y ago
      In the context of standards used for certification, I would count only flights from before certification was complete. There was one flight with two crew to the ISS: the same test Starliner is currently attempting. I agree with your analysis that Boeing does not deserve to have lowered standards. I'm suggesting that neither did Crew Dragon before certification. I'm not suggesting their systems or records are comparable, I'm simply arguing that unproven systems should be tested rigorously before being certified for human-rated spaceflight.

cptskippy 2y ago

They've launched 12 crew missions in the last 44 months putting 46 people in orbit.

itishappy 2y ago
Right, but first they certified it for human-rated spaceflight by scrutinizing it very closely and testing it very rigorously.
- cptskippy 2y ago
  They certified a modification to an existing spacecraft that was already proven. Starliner is a bespoke from scratch vehicle.
  - itishappy 2y ago
    Are you suggesting they did or should have relaxed the human-rated spaceflight certification standards for Crew Dragon?
    - cptskippy 2y ago
      No, they actually have made them go through more rigor than Starliner has been subject to. What I'm saying is that Dragon was built upon an existing proven platform. The effort needed to convert the cargo module for human spaceflight is less than the effort Boeing needed to create a module from scratch. AND SpaceX still had to go through more rigor with Crew Dragon than what Boeing has had to do with Starliner. The certification standards for Starliner have been reduced compared to Dragon, and Boeing is asking for them to be reduced further still.

cwillu 2y ago

You're aware that SpaceX routinely performs crewed missions, right? There's been at least a dozen now.

itishappy 2y ago
How many of those happened before testing and certification was completed?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- cwillu 2y ago
  If you count the ones from before certification was complete, then there was one more than I counted. A baker's dozen instead of an even dozen launches. https://www.nasa.gov/humans-in-space/nasa-and-spacex-complete-certification-of-first-human-rated-commercial-space-system/ https://www.nasa.gov/humans-in-space/nasa-and-spacex-complet... “The Crew Dragon, including the Falcon 9 rocket and associated ground systems, is the first new, crew spacecraft to be NASA-certified for regular flights with astronauts since the space shuttle nearly 40 years ago. Several critical events paved the way for this achievement, including grounds tests, simulations, uncrewed flight tests and NASA’s SpaceX Demo-2 test flight with astronauts Robert Behnken and Douglas Hurley earlier this year.” [from 2020] Dragon did test flights demonstrating that the systems worked, Starliner has so far only done test flights demonstrating that the systems do not, plus a pinky promise that it'll work the next time. We do not know if, say, the abort system works, because the only time it was subjected to a full test, it failed. This is not a matter of SpaceX not having experience building human-rated craft and trying to get unearned credit for competence, this is a matter of Boeing trying to use their history to get unearned credit.
  - itishappy 2y ago
    In the context of standards used for certification, I would count only flights from before certification was complete. There was one flight with two crew to the ISS: the same test Starliner is currently attempting. I agree with your analysis that Boeing does not deserve to have lowered standards. I'm suggesting that neither did Crew Dragon before certification. I'm not suggesting their systems or records are comparable, I'm simply arguing that unproven systems should be tested rigorously before being certified for human-rated spaceflight.