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> They took the lessons from Versailles what lessons? The Allies didn't occupy Germany at all. Germany would have resumed the war if that was what the Versaill

> They took the lessons from Versailles what lessons? The Allies didn't occupy Germany at all. Germany would have resumed the war if that was what the Versailles conference came up with, and the Allies had no stomach for more war.

FredPret 2y ago
But isn’t that the lesson? Occupy while you rebuild?
- UIUC_06 2y ago
  No, the lesson was to demand unconditional surrender. That was just not in the cards for WW I. Russia had already dropped out.
  - bumby 2y ago
    It's of course up for debate, but one of the general assessments is that the resentment caused by the Treaty of Versailles gave fertile ground for the rise of the Nazi party. It's hard to see how unconditional surrender would have made the treaty more palatable to Germans rather than less.
    - sib 2y ago
      I would rather say that the fact that there was a (conditional) surrender by Germany and it took place before the Allies had significantly entered German homeland territory enabled certain agitators to claim that Germany had been betrayed rather than defeated. You are correct that the punitive nature of the Treaty of Versailles made for good grist for the mill when those same agitators to point at the "unfair" consequences of the betrayal. After WWII there was no one who could possibly say that Germany had not been completely and utterly defeated (and the Allies, at least the western ones with respect to western Germany) did invest in rebuilding the country.
      - otherme123 2y ago
        The WWI ended with an armistice, and then a peace treaty. It was intended to save Germany from the shame of total defeat. The problem with that was that peace terms were extremely harsh, as you would impose on an inconditional surrender, and France intention was to get revenge, applying the terms of the treaty as hard as they could. Said agitators tried to take advantage of that duality: "we didn't surrender, yet we are being humiliated". The lesson for WWII was that as shameful it could be for Japan to surrender inconditionally, it was needed to shut those sectors of the society that would think they could had won the war if only... This was more a problem with Japan than Germany in the WWII: Germany never (seriously) wanted a negotiated peace, and specially the soviets didn't want any of that. It's know that Hitler and friends wanted either victory or the complete annihilation of Germany. But Japan actively tried in the last couple of months of the war to achieve a conditional surrender.
        WalterBright 2y ago
        > Germany never (seriously) wanted a negotiated peace Hitler knew that he'd be hung when the war was over. He knew what happened to Mussolini. He was never going to allow a negotiated peace. The idea behind the officers' plot to kill him was that then Germany could sue for peace. Failing to kill Hitler meant the war was going to continue to the bitter end.
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> what lessons? The Allies didn't occupy Germany at all Of course we did [1]. The ACC was far more intrusive than the American occupation of Japan; we formally stripped Germany of its sovereignty. EDIT: the lesson from Versailles was that we had to rebuild Germany. To rebuild required occupation. Occupying Germany after WWII was one of the lessons learned from Versailles. > Germany would have resumed the war Germany was in no position to keep fighting. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied-occupied_Germany https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied-occupied_Germany
- dabluecaboose 2y ago
  The Treaty of Versailles[1] was the treaty that ended World War I, not World War II [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    Oh, I see what happened. OP said we learned from Versailles. That’s why we occupied Germany after WWII: to rebuild it.
- quietbritishjim 2y ago
  The comment you're replying to is about the Versailles conference after WW1, but your link is about WW2.
  - UIUC_06 2y ago
    so that's three of us who noticed that.
- UIUC_06 2y ago
  your link and comments are about WW II. Versailles was the treaty that ended WW I. > Germany was in no position to keep fighting. No one was in 1918 and everyone was exhausted, but "defending the homeland" is a more powerful motivator than anything the Allies had. Germany asked for an Armistice "on the basis of the 14 Points" which did not include occupation.
jjk166 2y ago
The allies did occupy a substantial portion of Germany after WW1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Rhineland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Rhineland

FredPret 2y ago

But isn’t that the lesson? Occupy while you rebuild?

UIUC_06 2y ago
No, the lesson was to demand unconditional surrender. That was just not in the cards for WW I. Russia had already dropped out.
- bumby 2y ago
  It's of course up for debate, but one of the general assessments is that the resentment caused by the Treaty of Versailles gave fertile ground for the rise of the Nazi party. It's hard to see how unconditional surrender would have made the treaty more palatable to Germans rather than less.
  - sib 2y ago
    I would rather say that the fact that there was a (conditional) surrender by Germany and it took place before the Allies had significantly entered German homeland territory enabled certain agitators to claim that Germany had been betrayed rather than defeated. You are correct that the punitive nature of the Treaty of Versailles made for good grist for the mill when those same agitators to point at the "unfair" consequences of the betrayal. After WWII there was no one who could possibly say that Germany had not been completely and utterly defeated (and the Allies, at least the western ones with respect to western Germany) did invest in rebuilding the country.
    - otherme123 2y ago
      The WWI ended with an armistice, and then a peace treaty. It was intended to save Germany from the shame of total defeat. The problem with that was that peace terms were extremely harsh, as you would impose on an inconditional surrender, and France intention was to get revenge, applying the terms of the treaty as hard as they could. Said agitators tried to take advantage of that duality: "we didn't surrender, yet we are being humiliated". The lesson for WWII was that as shameful it could be for Japan to surrender inconditionally, it was needed to shut those sectors of the society that would think they could had won the war if only... This was more a problem with Japan than Germany in the WWII: Germany never (seriously) wanted a negotiated peace, and specially the soviets didn't want any of that. It's know that Hitler and friends wanted either victory or the complete annihilation of Germany. But Japan actively tried in the last couple of months of the war to achieve a conditional surrender.
      - WalterBright 2y ago
        > Germany never (seriously) wanted a negotiated peace Hitler knew that he'd be hung when the war was over. He knew what happened to Mussolini. He was never going to allow a negotiated peace. The idea behind the officers' plot to kill him was that then Germany could sue for peace. Failing to kill Hitler meant the war was going to continue to the bitter end.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> what lessons? The Allies didn't occupy Germany at all Of course we did [1]. The ACC was far more intrusive than the American occupation of Japan; we formally stripped Germany of its sovereignty. EDIT: the lesson from Versailles was that we had to rebuild Germany. To rebuild required occupation. Occupying Germany after WWII was one of the lessons learned from Versailles. > Germany would have resumed the war Germany was in no position to keep fighting. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied-occupied_Germany https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied-occupied_Germany

dabluecaboose 2y ago
The Treaty of Versailles[1] was the treaty that ended World War I, not World War II [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  Oh, I see what happened. OP said we learned from Versailles. That’s why we occupied Germany after WWII: to rebuild it.
quietbritishjim 2y ago
The comment you're replying to is about the Versailles conference after WW1, but your link is about WW2.
- UIUC_06 2y ago
  so that's three of us who noticed that.
UIUC_06 2y ago
your link and comments are about WW II. Versailles was the treaty that ended WW I. > Germany was in no position to keep fighting. No one was in 1918 and everyone was exhausted, but "defending the homeland" is a more powerful motivator than anything the Allies had. Germany asked for an Armistice "on the basis of the 14 Points" which did not include occupation.

jjk166 2y ago

The allies did occupy a substantial portion of Germany after WW1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Rhineland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Rhineland