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THN Magazine Stole Our Code and Design
- danvideo 14y agoThe "@override http://hm.local http://hm.local is still there. Sheesh, it takes someone quite clever to copy code comments linking back to the original code. ed: phrasing corrected
- GoodIntentions 14y agoI've found copied web content due to the person copying it not changing any of my img tags, external js, css before putting it up... pretty dumb.
- Bill_Dimm 14y agoI found someone that copied one of our websites because they copied it so exactly that they included the corporate logo in the footer, which had a link back to our corporate website. I noticed the odd referrer URL in a click through to our corporate site.
- vineet 14y agoThe link title needs to change, i.e. remove the 'how' from it (this is not on the linked post).
- dashcancel 14y agoDoesn't really describe "how" it happened.
- zsherman 14y agoThat's your only reaction?
- vineet 14y agoActually, my reaction as well. I was thinking that this was going to be a piece on how to copy well (re: "Good artists copy; great artists steal").
- klapinat0r 14y agoI'm actually a bit surprised by the reactions here. Since when is css copyrighted? Where are the numerous lawsuits against Pinterest "clones" for having a grid layout etc.? Sure, it's a shame, but css, like html and javascript, is not a protected source. It's run client-side. Would you rather just receive a image/png from websites? EDIT: I know someone who've experienced something very similar (with css prefixes obviously referring to his site rather than the microsoft.cn clone).
- wtetzner 14y agoJust because you can read the source doesn't mean it isn't copyrighted.
- klapinat0r 14y agoRight, but it doesn't mean it's copyrighted either.
- mistercow 14y agoYes, it does. In the US, all copyrightable creative works (which includes CSS files) are copyrighted by default as soon as they are created. The system is opt-out, not opt-in.
- cdcarter 14y agoIn fact, there's not even an opt-out. You can just create a permissive license. There is no authoritative way to release a work into Public Domain.
- klapinat0r 14y agoExactly. In the US.
- mistercow 14y agoHmm, you do have a point. It seems that Malaysian and Indian law are what we need to know here, since that's where the two parties are based.
- ceejayoz 14y agoDid you really need a description of how people use Copy + Paste?
- hackNightly 14y ago"how" it happened was clearly someone opening up a text editor and copying this man's hard work. It's a shame that this was so blatant, I hope the OP at least gets a good formal apology out of this.
- noobiscus 14y agoCtrl+U, Ctrl+A, Ctrl+C, Alt+Tab, Ctrl+V, Ctrl+S
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- oliwarner 14y agoWhy are you on here complaining about it? Do something. Hire a lawyer and get it fixed. If you think it's as clear-cut as you make it sound, skip the lawyer and take direct action. Moaning to a bunch of grumpy programmers is only going to get you advice like that.
- BryanB55 14y agoA lawyer probably isn't worth the time or money to them. I know how they feel. We constantly have people ripping off our website and design work. Sometimes the best method is just to call them out on it and honestly, they deserve to be publicly humiliated for stealing someone else's work and claiming it as their own. Maybe if more people publicly speak out people will learn that it is not ok. It specially sucks when you are the one that created something and put all of your effort into it and then see someone outright copy your work and use it as their own.
- natrius 14y agoPublic shaming, especially among the community involved, is often quite effective.
- oliwarner 14y agoMore effective than spending 30 minutes to take the site down with a DMCA? This is exactly what they're supposed to be used for. I don't see how giving them a whole load of PR, links and stern looks is going to fix anything given that they're unscrupulous enough to copy swathes of design and code.
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- ghshephard 14y agoIf you believe you have a case, and it's worth your time (and money) take $300 and go have a lawyer draft a letter tell them to cease and desist. IANAL (see above) but if it's a 100% clear cut case of IP theft, and you have some ownership of the IP that's been stolen, I think you can even file a DMCA takedown request to whoever is hosting their material.
- BryanB55 14y agoI think everyone is blowing this out of proportion. 90% of the time that I've contacted someone about stealing my work, I send them an email and let them know and they promptly pull it down. You probably don't need a DMCA takedown request. I guess if you want to teach them a lesson, which they definitely deserve to learn, then go ahead and sue them.
- zhoutong 14y agoThe Hacker News is not something small or sketchy. They have 50,000 followers on Twitter. (https://twitter.com/#!/thehackersnews https://twitter.com/#!/thehackersnews) They really deserve to learn the lesson.
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- wissler 14y agoI don't understand this instant knee-jerk reaction to call the lawyers out and bandy about the idea of a lawsuit. Public shame is powerful, and is often much more efficient than the legal system at solving the actual problem.
- lotharbot 14y agoThe combination of public shame and a very basic legal request is often much more powerful than either in isolation.
- ktizo 14y agoI sort of understand how this happens in industries that have few IT or media skills, but to be that stupid when running a hacker magazine site is far beyond simple lazyness or plagiarism and is striding boldly into the boggy marshland territories of true incompetence while wearing nothing but lead stilettos and a hat saying 'Bite Me' and sporting a cologne made of alligator pheromones.
- TazeTSchnitzel 14y ago"striding boldly into the boggy marshland territories of true incompetence" is now my favourite expression. Thanks for that.
- ktizo 14y agoYou are welcome. You can have it if you like. I found it in a dank crevice next to a bewildered field-mouse, whilst searching forlornly for my missing marbles.
- emitstop 14y agoUh, so what? It's an incredibly basic design. It's not as if it's some blatant ripoff of an extravagantly designed theme. They changed the logos and such (so it's not as if they are pretending to BE you), and made the colours their own. I'm not quite sure what you're mad about? I would disagree with the concept of ownership of any kind of design work. Especially in the case of code considering how one-dimensional CSS is, there's really only one or two ways to build a site like this anyway.
- zhoutong 14y agoThere are lots of free and premium themes to build a "basic site" like this, and anyone can get a license to use the design legally. Why steal from someone who isn't willing to license? CSS is open source by default, but this doesn't mean there's no copyright.
- inetsee 14y agoCSS is not open source by default. The default is that copyright exists on any creative work from its moment of creation.
- TillE 14y agoThere's open source and there's Open Source. It's always been a fuzzy term, hence the move towards Free Software. In the strictest, most literal sense, yes, the source is publicly available and readable by default.
- Danieru 14y agoNo, it is not a fuzzy term. Open source means it is licensed under an open source license. Even Microsoft is not trying to steal the term, opting for 'shared source' instead.
- emitstop 14y agoI'm not talking about current U.S. copyright legislation. First off, I don't agree with the concept that anyone has the right to 'own' information in the first place (especially lines of code). It isn't 'stealing'. It's not as if they have deprived hackermonthly of their site. At worst they copied. I'm not sure what you are saying in regards to CSS being 'open source'. My point was that between syntax and formatting standards, CSS has very little creative control (in terms of the actual writing of the code). Sure you might decide to do 4 space indents, choose one line rules vs. multiple, etc. But usually there is a best way, or most standards compliant way of structuring and styling the design. What I'm saying is two people coding the same design could easily produce nearly identical code, with the only differences being small irrelevant differences in formatting.
- danvideo 14y agoIn spite of its problems, I'd consider subscribing to The Hacker News Magazine if this article makes it into the next issue of the magazine.
- papaver 14y agoGet over it. This happens everyday a thousand times over. Provide a better service that keeps users from going elsewhere. Keep innovating to keep the competition one step behind. Heard of Pinspire? The Samwer brothers have used the copy game over and over again to get mad rich. It's not worth your time getting upset. Look at it as a form of flattery and move on. Your time is better spent on making your site better than bitching and/or attempting to get them to stop.
- Falling3 14y ago"Get over it" almost always shitty advice.
- nsoldiac 14y agoA case of "some guy stole my mySpace color scheme!" it's worthy of a 'get over it', not this. You're copying ideas and possibly code from a working business to use in your own business and gaining from it without acknowledgement or permission (this last part is key). Public shame IS a proper deterrent, posts like this is the way to go.
- franzus 14y ago> copying ideas oh no! call the thought police!
- timjahn 14y agoI have an average high speed Internet connection and the 4 images you have on this post take forever to load the first time. Turns out you're loading giant images (with original dimensions in the neighborhood of 1421x1352 and a filesize of 2mb) into an <img> with dimensions in the neighborhood of 570x542. If you only need an image of size 570x542, please resize your images for the web and use those resized images in your post, rather than 2mb originals. This will help people load your page much faster and have a more pleasant experience reading your post. Thanks. :)
- bearwithclaws 14y agoFixed :)
- timjahn 14y agoThanks!
- alanh 14y agoYep, and you should expect massive savings with ImageOptim, too!
- Killswitch 14y agoFunny enough I just read this article and thread and moved on... While googling for some stuff, I ran across this site: http://nerdinthebasement.com/ http://nerdinthebasement.com/ Looks exactly like BOTH yours and the offending site, just a color change... I don't think there's anything special about the design that would warrant calling wolf, other than the fact of the CSS comment showing he did actually rip the design... What I'm saying? I don't know. Designs are designs, nothing revolutionary about this one... Shrug it off, and move on.
- ericd 14y agoYou need to actively fight against unethical behavior if you want to help prevent it from becoming the norm, and that's everyone's responsibility.
- drivebyacct2 14y agoIronically, that looks like Ubuntu's website header with the colors changed.
- l0gicpath 14y agoone can argue that the three are in fact very similar to the standard layout and design of twitter bootstrap
- unconed 14y agoYou must not have an eye for design. The original and plagiarized sites have identical typography and proportions in the navigation. The link you pasted looks only somewhat similar.
- hristov 14y agoDoes Hacker Monthly obtain the rights to republish all the articles in their magazine? They probably do not need permission from Y-combinator, but they certainly need permission from the original article authors/owners. If they are not getting permission, it seems that they are stealing too.
- zhoutong 14y agoI think they have requested permission from all authors. I remember I read it somewhere.
- bearwithclaws 14y agoWe do. Every single one of them.
- martinkallstrom 14y agoEvery single one? Including the author of the css for your website? Edit: Yes, as per your reply below, this comment stemmed from an eruption of confusion on my part. It (the confusion) is now contained and slumbering happily in the depths of my brain. I extend my sincere apologies.
- bearwithclaws 14y agoWait, there must be some confusion. I am the author of the css of my website.
- hristov 14y agoAlright. Good to know. By the way, I was merely asking, I was not accusing anyone, so there is no need to downvote me.
- Ralith 14y agoI see you're using a computer. Did you happen to steal that computer from someone? Maybe a neighbor? Perhaps the local consumer electronics retailer?
- droithomme 14y agoIn my opinion, on first examination, the layouts are fairly generic in their particular similarities, and the copy text and specifics different enough as to possibly not be a clone but rather just a site with a similar design. However, that changes when we see that the css file has been copied exactly. That makes a much stronger case that they may have started with your design and altered it just enough to seem to be different.
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- stiff 14y agoWhat is written in the first paragraph is used way too often to excuse plagiarism. The probability that starting with a blank HTML page and working honestly you will end up with a design that similar to somebodies else one is very, very close to 0 even for simple pages like this one. Completely the same menu item width, pixel by pixel the same drop shadow, same fonts, same widths etc. There are literally at least millions of variations of a design similar in style with various small subtle differences, there are too many tiny decisions to be made (with many outcomes being pretty much equally good) to make similarity that close just possible by chance and to make 3 or 4 differences plausible evidence for this work being original.
- droithomme 14y agoHas the term plagiarism been used before for lifting layouts? Copying to be sure. Look and feel though aren't copyrightable, though yes, copyright is different from plagiarism. As I tried to make clear, that the css file is stolen straight out, that's clearly plagiarism/theft of that file. And even though the file lacks a copyright notice such notices are no longer strictly required. The layouts of course look very similar because they are both using the same css to set everything up. That all said, Helvetica/Arial in menu categories, Georgia as body font and 40px margins is something on a lot of sites. These are quite generic settings. There's not a lot of leeway possible for something like margins, there's a small finite range of reasonable settings. It's expected that many sites will have the same ones. It's also exceptionally common to have a logo in upper left, section selections to the right, a bar at the top, and text with margins below it. This is a completely standard web layout. Even seeing everything here exactly the same but with different text, sections and css files, it would no longer be certain to be cloned, but entirely possible to be just another person using a standard web layout with the same settings. How many typewritten letters have I received with 0.5" or 1" margins? A lot. Sent a lot too. Margin settings are not intellectual property at all, neither is font selection, especially when choosing completely standard web fonts in the same way that is used by many sites. Even if someone did peek at their css and "steal" their 40px setting because they like those margins, it's not theft to do so. Stealing the entire layout by copying the css file, yeah, that's a problem though.
- franzus 14y agoWhy not opensource your code? Less drama, more profit for the community.
- Smudge 14y agoPlenty of sites have generic layouts that are clearly "inspired" by other sites. But blatantly re-purposing an entire site's code goes too far. You are right to call them out. Will this fiasco harm your business? Probably not. If anything, enjoy the extra boost in traffic and sales.
- FixThisPOSSite 14y agoReusing. "repurposing" != a word
- SeanLuke 14y agoThis is a straightforward copyright violation. Why is it an issue requiring public shaming? Issue a DMCA takedown notice of the entire site to the site owners and also to http://www.directi.com/ http://www.directi.com/ which appears to be hosting the site (via orderbox-dns.com) I think. Then watch the sparks fly.
- shepbook 14y agoPlease don't listen to this person's call to use something like the DMCA. You've done the right thing, calling them out. Honestly, Hacker News based magazines (like Hacker Monthly, which I subscribe to and enjoy) cater to a very niche market that, I suspect, will hold far greater respect for pointing out their obvious stealing of your design/layout/whatever than you pursuing a legal recourse of action. I, for one, applaud Hacker Monthly's response and actions. Had they pointed out their sending a DMCA takedown notice, I would have lost respect for them. You're doing the right thing. Stay the course! We're behind you all the way.
- joering2 14y agoSo what?? I don't care!! both of you bringing value that I like. So I don't care how your sites been designed, and sure you have being taking/stealing/inspiring from others, so its not like you are innocent, as none of us is. So they went a short way and copied (not stole [1]) your code. So what? Please, steal from me! If you can take my ideas and make them better, I still can go back and see what I haven't seen before and learn from you, execute better next time. World is not a sum zero game where all ideas has been done and we just wait to die. We constantly progress! There will be new ideas to pursue. And besides, what you gonna do now? You already cried and waste people's time on reading and commenting on it. Are you gonna sue them? Take a legal action? Burn your or your investors' money? What do you expect in return? Apology?? If there were go one step further and use search and replace on html and css and replace variable's names and classes, etc, would that satisfy you?? [1] arguably, nothing has been stolen from you, as of this moment, visiting hackermonthly.com I still can see the code and design being healthy and all OK.
- thraveboy 14y agoThe irony that HM is simply repurposing of HN content is not lost on many.
- SkyMarshal 14y agoYou must be new here. That's the whole point. So that regulars who don't have time to read HN every day can get a curated weekly list of the best content we may have missed. PS - the difference is attribution.
- benatkin 14y agoHmm, so someone ripped of your site, and just enough of it is different, that it's probably best to just shrug it off and keep working on your site. But wait, there is a comment in the CSS that clearly shows that they ripped it off! This changes everything! Actually, no, it doesn't. This is a distraction. When something weird/awkward like this happens it's probably best to leave it out of the conversation. It would be different if rather than a comment it had been some non-trivial code that directly added functionality to the site, or improved the look and feel. But this is debugging material. BTW I like Hacker Monthly but I don't currently use it, because I'm already fairly comfortable with how I consume articles here. Keep up the good work, though!
- daeken 14y agoRipping off a site's look and feel is not generally illegal, it's just scummy. However, that (irrelevant) comment in the CSS shows that it is at least somewhat a derivative work, which is often illegal.
- roguecoder 14y agoI think it's only scummy if it sets out to confuse users as to which site they are on. Changing both the font and the color scheme would seem to make that less likely. Otherwise, emulating decent look-and-feel is often a good thing: it is how we come to better designs and users with predictable expectations.
- LeonB 14y agoit's not an emulation -- it has hasn't been re-implemented. When you compare the CSS you see it is a complete copy.
- LeonB 14y agoit's not just that comment that is copied. All of the css has been copied, with very minor modifications. He just highlights that comment as it is sufficient proof that the code is copied. So all of the stuff that is non-trivial was copied as well.
- dudurocha 14y agoI think the biggest problem is not the stole per si. But the biggest problem is that a company trying to make a similar service ripped the competition design. It's so sad that someone inside the hacker culture has to go through things like these. Why stole a code?
- jc-denton 14y agoLol I think they should rather call it "The n00bs news magazine". Looks completely lame. So I would just ignore them, its a waste of time.
- voidpointer 14y agoI am not familiar with hackermonthly but they seem to "reprint" material that was popular on HN. Is all that content actually correctly licensed to be used in that way? Just wondering how those logistics are working... contacting all the individual authors, working out the terms &c.
- jmcqk6 14y agoWith Hacker Monthly, I believe all authors are contacted and for permission. I think compensation is even provided, perhaps in the form of a free subscription?
- bearwithclaws 14y agoI've blogged about our workflow: http://blog.hackermonthly.com/making-hacker-monthly.html http://blog.hackermonthly.com/making-hacker-monthly.html
- voidpointer 14y agoCool, thanks!
- waterlesscloud 14y agoWeird. The most common refrain here about copyright violations is that it isn't theft since nothing has been taken from you and you don't have any less than you did before. Does that only apply to content creators outside this community?
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- lazerwalker 14y agoIt's impossible to speak authoritatively for a large community with widely differing opinions, but it appears to me that for a lot of people, the distinction of whether or not a copyright violation is immoral or not is dependent on whether the instigator is actively profiting from the violation. If you download Game of Thrones to watch on your laptop, there is a long and circuitous argument we can have about exactly how much you're harming HBO, but it's pretty clear that the only thing you're gaining is the ability to consume the TV show you've pirated. If your business's web site is based on someone else's code without proper licensing, and that design is presumably a factor in customers choosing to patronize you, you now have a tangible financial gain that is owed (at least in part) to a copyright violation. It's a flawed analogy, but this is less like downloading an episode of Game of Thrones and more like selling bootleg DVDs of the show.
- waterlesscloud 14y agoPirateBay has advertising, and thus a tangible financial gain based on copyright violation. Are they to be condemned?
- nitrogen 14y agoThese arguments have been repeated endlessly for years. Instead of rehashing them yet again on this thread, why not read all the points one can possibly raise by searching the HN, Ars Technica, Reddit, Slashdot, Torrent Freak, Usenet, etc. archives?
- 14y ago
- crisnoble 14y agoCheck out both sites side by side: http://th.isandth.at/#leftTarget=http%3A//hackermonthly.com/issues.html&rightTarget=http%3A//magazine.thehackernews.com/issues.html http://th.isandth.at/#leftTarget=http%3A//hackermonthly.com/... (not great on mobile devices)
- scoot 14y agoOh, so now copying is theft?
- reitzensteinm 14y agoThe HN readership does not hold one consistent set of opinions, so pointing out the irrationality of the behavior of the group would seem to be a waste of time.
- xorbyte 14y agoIt would appear that THN has been previously called out for plagiarism by Attrition.org back in January: http://attrition.org/errata/plagiarism/thehackernews/ http://attrition.org/errata/plagiarism/thehackernews/ CSS and HTML aren't the only things 'Mohit Kumar' copies, it would appear.
- franze 14y agowell, the internet is as the biggest unofficial open source project ever, just because you can do view-source on ever website there is. copying parts (even big parts) of a site you like is not only common practice, but also great for innovation. just imagine how the web would look like if tim berners-lee would have chosen a flash like technology for the web? (my guess: we would not have the internet, we would live in the microsoftnet (as they are great in getting market share in closed source economies)) yes, they could have worked a little harder to give their site a little bit more "originality", but other than that, it is the internet way. i have cloned (parts of) hundreds of websites, any my websites (and parts of it) were cloned even more often, even before github. be flattered, move on (with your great magazine).
- oliwarner 14y agoYou don't seem to see the distinction between being able to see the source and being legally able to reuse that source. Copyright still applies.
- franze 14y agoi see a distinction, but a too strict interpretation of copyright is bad for the web and innovation. i'm glad there (still) is a view-source option in every browser, and i'm glad people still use it. view-source is how i started into webdevelopement in the nineties (remember, there was no github), and i'm glad people still use it (i do).
- nitrogen 14y agoI agree that View Source is good, and stumbling on that option is how I started to learn HTML as well. What people are saying here is that View Source->Copy->Paste->Profit is bad. View Source->Learn->Reinvent->Profit is fine.
- J3L2404 14y ago"The owner wanted the student to pay for the smells he was enjoying. The student was stealing his smells!" - pg
- sparknlaunch 14y agoSites look similar, but how different is this from using the same Hacker News orange colour scheme and aggregating stories directly from Hacker News? "Hacker Monthly is a print magazine version of Hacker News — a social news website wildly popular among programmers and startup founders. The submission guidelines state that content can be “anything that gratifies one’s intellectual curiosity.” Every month, we select from the top voted articles on Hacker News and print them in magazine format."
- chrismealy 14y agoBoo hoo. It's just bootstrap anyway.
- roguecoder 14y agoThey also appear to have failed to change the Google Analytic account number: " var _gaq = _gaq || []; _gaq.push(['_setAccount', 'UA-160215-2']); _gaq.push(['_trackPageview']); " Normally I'm pretty pro-code-reuse, but that is just lazy-sauce.
- jgrahamc 14y agoThis very thing happened when I was working at $LAST_COMPANY. Another company took our entire site design, fiddled with it a bit and published their site. The didn't change the Google Analytics and we found a new competitor because they showed up in our Google Analytics reports.
- SudarshanP 14y agoI guess the whole fiasco has given more visibility to "thehackermonthly.com"... Some people say "All news is good news".
- pbhjpbhj 14y ago'There's no such thing as bad publicity' I thought it was from a UK celebrity publicist but it seems not: http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/there-is-no-such-thing-as-bad-publicity.html http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/there-is-no-such-thing-as...
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- brutuscat 14y agoActually at first sight yours looks a lot like Blogger's Dynamic Views http://googleblog.blogspot.com.es/2011/09/dynamic-views-seven-new-ways-to-share.html http://googleblog.blogspot.com.es/2011/09/dynamic-views-seve...
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- Apocryphon 14y agoThe biggest issue I have with THN is the title. "The Hacker News." Sounds all sorts of derivative.