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>Somewhat famous for not including arrow keys because Steve Jobs wanted to encourage developers to use the mouse instead You know, with Jobs, the more I learn

>Somewhat famous for not including arrow keys because Steve Jobs wanted to encourage developers to use the mouse instead You know, with Jobs, the more I learn about that guy, the more I don’t care for him.

sneak 2y ago
Impossible to not read this in Norm’s nasal Canadian drawl.
amelius 2y ago
Yeah. And if Apple design was so great, then why didn't we have separate copy+cut+paste keys, and undo+redo keys from the start? For example. Or even a help key.
mannyv 2y ago
And in response, a market for numeric keypads with arrow keys was born. You can focus on the one thing that aggravates you, or your can focus on everything that he got done during the arc of his career. Like it or not, he helped define today's world of computing.
- rsynnott 2y ago
  Eh, not really? In response, the _next_ Apple keyboard did have arrow keys. It was clearly a mistake.
  - gmac 2y ago
    I didn’t read it that way at all. If the keyboard without arrow keys had succeeded in setting the norm that developers rely on the mouse for input, then presumably it had done its job, and it was now safe to release a keyboard with arrow keys.
- amelius 2y ago
  The Apple UX isn't much better than the often criticized Linux UX. In fact, sometimes it is worse (maximizing windows comes to mind). An opinionated system can be ok if the designer's opinion happens to match yours. Otherwise it can cause frustration.
tpmoney 2y ago
He was right to do so. Give people an easy way out of designing for a new interface and they won't design for it. It's the same reason why they didn't do a stylus for iPhones and iPads early on. If they had, the overwhelming "touch" design language would have favored small stylus size targets instead of large finger sized ones. Similarly, when they shipped USB on the iMacs, that was the only peripheral port for the first 2 versions. And when they finally added more than USB, it was to add the new Firewire, not to add any legacy ports back. Would the Wii have done as well with motion controlled games if defaulting to a playstation style controller was doable out of the box? How many pieces of old software and technology stay around despite better modern replacements because defaulting to the familiar original is easier? Not everything new is obviously better, and new doesn't mean it should necessarily replace what came before. But new needs dedication to giving it a fair shake, and sometimes that requires going all in on the new and making going back to the old difficult.
DidYaWipe 2y ago
One also wonders WTF Apple has against Delete keys. It's infuriating. Mac laptops and small Apple keyboards have only a Backspace key mislabeled "delete," and no real Delete key. And, despite years of complaints, Apple pettily refused to address this even when physical media became obsolete and freed up the Eject key. They made this into... a baffling "lock" key or something if I remember correctly. And even worse... when Eject existed, Apple put a HARDWARE delay on it; so you couldn't even remap it to be Delete. Why impose an insurmountable delay on an Eject key? Were people being killed by accidentally-ejected CDs? And if so, why didn't Apple simply make Eject a Delete key, with Eject being a secondary function accessible only with a modifier key... solving two problems at once?
- 83457 2y ago
  Hold the function key to change delete/backspace. It is actually nice once you get used to it.
  - Jtsummers 2y ago
    C-d works too and is easier to type.
  - DidYaWipe 2y ago
    Two hands to delete a character is NOT nice. Why on earth would you want that? Nor is this combo marked on the keyboard, so most people don't know about it. They end up arrowing across characters and then backspacing them away, or using the mouse for everything. And finally: The point about the Eject key stands.
    - 83457 2y ago
      It comes up most often when I'm updating a string. I may want to backspace a couple characters and then, possibly after entering new characters, delete the other direction. I'm already using multiple hands/keys constantly so no big deal. Keeps the theme of removing characters on the same key.

sneak 2y ago

Impossible to not read this in Norm’s nasal Canadian drawl.

amelius 2y ago

Yeah. And if Apple design was so great, then why didn't we have separate copy+cut+paste keys, and undo+redo keys from the start? For example. Or even a help key.

mannyv 2y ago

And in response, a market for numeric keypads with arrow keys was born. You can focus on the one thing that aggravates you, or your can focus on everything that he got done during the arc of his career. Like it or not, he helped define today's world of computing.

rsynnott 2y ago
Eh, not really? In response, the _next_ Apple keyboard did have arrow keys. It was clearly a mistake.
- gmac 2y ago
  I didn’t read it that way at all. If the keyboard without arrow keys had succeeded in setting the norm that developers rely on the mouse for input, then presumably it had done its job, and it was now safe to release a keyboard with arrow keys.
amelius 2y ago
The Apple UX isn't much better than the often criticized Linux UX. In fact, sometimes it is worse (maximizing windows comes to mind). An opinionated system can be ok if the designer's opinion happens to match yours. Otherwise it can cause frustration.

tpmoney 2y ago

He was right to do so. Give people an easy way out of designing for a new interface and they won't design for it. It's the same reason why they didn't do a stylus for iPhones and iPads early on. If they had, the overwhelming "touch" design language would have favored small stylus size targets instead of large finger sized ones. Similarly, when they shipped USB on the iMacs, that was the only peripheral port for the first 2 versions. And when they finally added more than USB, it was to add the new Firewire, not to add any legacy ports back. Would the Wii have done as well with motion controlled games if defaulting to a playstation style controller was doable out of the box? How many pieces of old software and technology stay around despite better modern replacements because defaulting to the familiar original is easier? Not everything new is obviously better, and new doesn't mean it should necessarily replace what came before. But new needs dedication to giving it a fair shake, and sometimes that requires going all in on the new and making going back to the old difficult.

DidYaWipe 2y ago

One also wonders WTF Apple has against Delete keys. It's infuriating. Mac laptops and small Apple keyboards have only a Backspace key mislabeled "delete," and no real Delete key. And, despite years of complaints, Apple pettily refused to address this even when physical media became obsolete and freed up the Eject key. They made this into... a baffling "lock" key or something if I remember correctly. And even worse... when Eject existed, Apple put a HARDWARE delay on it; so you couldn't even remap it to be Delete. Why impose an insurmountable delay on an Eject key? Were people being killed by accidentally-ejected CDs? And if so, why didn't Apple simply make Eject a Delete key, with Eject being a secondary function accessible only with a modifier key... solving two problems at once?

83457 2y ago
Hold the function key to change delete/backspace. It is actually nice once you get used to it.
- Jtsummers 2y ago
  C-d works too and is easier to type.
- DidYaWipe 2y ago
  Two hands to delete a character is NOT nice. Why on earth would you want that? Nor is this combo marked on the keyboard, so most people don't know about it. They end up arrowing across characters and then backspacing them away, or using the mouse for everything. And finally: The point about the Eject key stands.
  - 83457 2y ago
    It comes up most often when I'm updating a string. I may want to backspace a couple characters and then, possibly after entering new characters, delete the other direction. I'm already using multiple hands/keys constantly so no big deal. Keeps the theme of removing characters on the same key.