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https://archive.is/FMfu4 https://archive.is/FMfu4 > Perhaps as BPF subsumes Linux into making it a managed-runtime hybrid kernel with subsystems becoming incre

https://archive.is/FMfu4 https://archive.is/FMfu4 > Perhaps as BPF subsumes Linux into making it a managed-runtime hybrid kernel with subsystems becoming increasingly componentized and instrumented (with early signs in the proposal to add Linux Security Module hooks to BPF programs), as pidfd/process descriptors allow for reliable supervision to be distributed across self-contained processes, as the native Linux mount API becomes more event-driven on its own, and as a generation of Rust fanatics in their undying religious zeal insist that all men are obligated to offer sacrifices to the borrow checker, a new shift may emerge where once again, the init system is made to cease mattering. Alpine, Devuan, Gentoo and other devs have kept init choice available.

DiabloD3 2y ago
*Debian. apt-get install sysvinit-core
- lmm 2y ago
  What good is being able to install sysvinit if it doesn't run your services? Debian killed first-class sysvinit, the downgrading of Debian/kFreeBSD is proof enough. (And more importantly it killed all other well-behaved cooperative init options - this isn't about systemd vs sysvinit, it's about systemd vs standards-based init systems that play nice)
  - capitainenemo 2y ago
    Devuan is still an option.
    - walterbell 2y ago
      Including Devuan on Arm!
ChocolateGod 2y ago
> Alpine, Devuan, Gentoo and other devs have kept init choice available. Nothing stopped anyone, including yourself, from modifying or forking a distro like Fedora to make it support non-systemd, it's just you can't expect others to do it for you.
- walterbell 2y ago
  Fedora/RH is maintained by a company with > 100 billion market cap. Forked by Oracle, Rocky Linux and AlmaLinux, for reasons other than systemd.
- akira2501 2y ago
  Some distributions made this convenient. Others made this inconvenient. It's not about expectations it's about distributions going out of their way to remove choices from users in some highly opinionated ways. Which is all fine, I just won't use your distribution, what surprises me are the people who feel the need to step in an "defend" this rather pointless outcome for some reason. My favorites are those who suggest that this had to occur in order for linux to "mature" or "become modern."
- i_read_news 2y ago
  The power of defaults cannot be underestimated.
- lmm 2y ago
  > Nothing stopped anyone, including yourself, from modifying or forking a distro like Fedora to make it support non-systemd Pottering et al went out of their way to make this harder than it would otherwise be (e.g. adding the gnome hard-dependency on logind which they then variously claimed was necessary, was unintended, was accidental...) Nothing's stopping me from modifying Windows to do what I want either, it's just hard. There was a time when Linux people cared about whether their systems were easy to modify.
  - mid-kid 2y ago
    logind isn't really the worst of it, systemd has a tendency of usurping existing solutions into only working with the rest of systemd, instead of helping improve the ecosystem for everyone.

DiabloD3 2y ago

*Debian. apt-get install sysvinit-core

lmm 2y ago
What good is being able to install sysvinit if it doesn't run your services? Debian killed first-class sysvinit, the downgrading of Debian/kFreeBSD is proof enough. (And more importantly it killed all other well-behaved cooperative init options - this isn't about systemd vs sysvinit, it's about systemd vs standards-based init systems that play nice)
- capitainenemo 2y ago
  Devuan is still an option.
  - walterbell 2y ago
    Including Devuan on Arm!

ChocolateGod 2y ago

> Alpine, Devuan, Gentoo and other devs have kept init choice available. Nothing stopped anyone, including yourself, from modifying or forking a distro like Fedora to make it support non-systemd, it's just you can't expect others to do it for you.

walterbell 2y ago
Fedora/RH is maintained by a company with > 100 billion market cap. Forked by Oracle, Rocky Linux and AlmaLinux, for reasons other than systemd.
akira2501 2y ago
Some distributions made this convenient. Others made this inconvenient. It's not about expectations it's about distributions going out of their way to remove choices from users in some highly opinionated ways. Which is all fine, I just won't use your distribution, what surprises me are the people who feel the need to step in an "defend" this rather pointless outcome for some reason. My favorites are those who suggest that this had to occur in order for linux to "mature" or "become modern."
i_read_news 2y ago
The power of defaults cannot be underestimated.
lmm 2y ago
> Nothing stopped anyone, including yourself, from modifying or forking a distro like Fedora to make it support non-systemd Pottering et al went out of their way to make this harder than it would otherwise be (e.g. adding the gnome hard-dependency on logind which they then variously claimed was necessary, was unintended, was accidental...) Nothing's stopping me from modifying Windows to do what I want either, it's just hard. There was a time when Linux people cared about whether their systems were easy to modify.
- mid-kid 2y ago
  logind isn't really the worst of it, systemd has a tendency of usurping existing solutions into only working with the rest of systemd, instead of helping improve the ecosystem for everyone.