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So if an application uses a 3rd party provider for authentication (Google, Github, etc) is this no longer considered "self-hosted", despite it running on user's

by mervz 2y ago

So if an application uses a 3rd party provider for authentication (Google, Github, etc) is this no longer considered "self-hosted", despite it running on user's hardware? I'm curious to know where you draw your imaginary line.

crote 2y ago
SES is an email platform. So Plunk is a self-hosted email platform - which uses a cloud platform to actually send email. If it's not sending email by itself, it's not a self-hosted email platform. Those apps using 3rd party auth providers almost universally have them as an optional plugin, allowing you to choose one of a dozen auth providers or your own self-hosted one. You're not tied to any specific 3rd party platform, and rarely tied to any 3rd party platform at all.
prmoustache 2y ago
It depends if that 3rd party provider is mandatory or not or if you have the option of having local auth / your own keycloak server, whatever. Once you have an external requirement and not option, it is no longer a self-hostable software.
fragmede 2y ago
if we look at the philosophy behind self-hosting - to be able to host it ourselves, aka not rely on an external party for hosting, that means that if an external party is down or otherwise unavailable, then that line becomes fairly apparent. If 3rd party auth is required, then it's not really self-hosting then is it, because if that third party is down and the software can't be used, then that philosophy is violated. if it's optional, then that's fine though. For something to be considered self-hosted, If the bombs drop and civilization is over and me, and my home lab are the only survivors, can I still use that software? I'd probably have other concerns in that case, like how am I going to survive nuclear winter, but that's where the imaginary line is.
- defrost 2y ago
  That certainly rules out all chat, email, and peer to peer software. Other than that, what's your power supply like?
  - fragmede 2y ago
    how so? ircd will keep running just fine on my server, as well as exim and dovecot for email. external Name resolution would be an issue, but I can run internal DNS for the other survivors that join my network. edit: prmoustache understood your comment better than i did.
    - defrost 2y ago
      If an IRC deamon runs on the only server left in the world .. what's the point? Who's going to log in?
      - fragmede 2y ago
        the question was if it is self hosting or not, and eg slack and discord are not. so regardless of how many humans are still alive to use it, on the only server still running, the survivors could use something self hosting whereas they could not use one that required a system that was down.
        defrost 2y ago
        The answer given was: > If the bombs drop and civilization is over and me, and my home lab are the only survivors, can I still use that software? which rules out any software used to connect to non existant other servers or people. Sure, the software "works" .. it just doesn't do anything .. ie. it can't be "used".
        prmoustache 2y ago
        Yes it does. That ircd servers in the example above can still be used with a bot as an automation tool (at that point as the only survivor the security would be the least of your concerns), as a way to invent imaginary friends to pretend your life is less miserable, whatever. Or say you have a mastodon or pixelfed instance. Sure no other instance will ever connect and no other user will ever be able to see your posts...but you. Which could include some fond memories you want to keep.

by mervz 2y ago

crote 2y ago

SES is an email platform. So Plunk is a self-hosted email platform - which uses a cloud platform to actually send email. If it's not sending email by itself, it's not a self-hosted email platform. Those apps using 3rd party auth providers almost universally have them as an optional plugin, allowing you to choose one of a dozen auth providers or your own self-hosted one. You're not tied to any specific 3rd party platform, and rarely tied to any 3rd party platform at all.

prmoustache 2y ago

It depends if that 3rd party provider is mandatory or not or if you have the option of having local auth / your own keycloak server, whatever. Once you have an external requirement and not option, it is no longer a self-hostable software.

fragmede 2y ago

if we look at the philosophy behind self-hosting - to be able to host it ourselves, aka not rely on an external party for hosting, that means that if an external party is down or otherwise unavailable, then that line becomes fairly apparent. If 3rd party auth is required, then it's not really self-hosting then is it, because if that third party is down and the software can't be used, then that philosophy is violated. if it's optional, then that's fine though. For something to be considered self-hosted, If the bombs drop and civilization is over and me, and my home lab are the only survivors, can I still use that software? I'd probably have other concerns in that case, like how am I going to survive nuclear winter, but that's where the imaginary line is.

defrost 2y ago
That certainly rules out all chat, email, and peer to peer software. Other than that, what's your power supply like?
- fragmede 2y ago
  how so? ircd will keep running just fine on my server, as well as exim and dovecot for email. external Name resolution would be an issue, but I can run internal DNS for the other survivors that join my network. edit: prmoustache understood your comment better than i did.
  - defrost 2y ago
    If an IRC deamon runs on the only server left in the world .. what's the point? Who's going to log in?
    - fragmede 2y ago
      the question was if it is self hosting or not, and eg slack and discord are not. so regardless of how many humans are still alive to use it, on the only server still running, the survivors could use something self hosting whereas they could not use one that required a system that was down.
      - defrost 2y ago
        The answer given was: > If the bombs drop and civilization is over and me, and my home lab are the only survivors, can I still use that software? which rules out any software used to connect to non existant other servers or people. Sure, the software "works" .. it just doesn't do anything .. ie. it can't be "used".
        prmoustache 2y ago
        Yes it does. That ircd servers in the example above can still be used with a bot as an automation tool (at that point as the only survivor the security would be the least of your concerns), as a way to invent imaginary friends to pretend your life is less miserable, whatever. Or say you have a mastodon or pixelfed instance. Sure no other instance will ever connect and no other user will ever be able to see your posts...but you. Which could include some fond memories you want to keep.