7 ms·

More like the easy commute you had in San Francisco on muni (the bus and subway network of San Francisco) becomes an annoying hour and a half-long commute on ba

by htrp 2y ago

More like the easy commute you had in San Francisco on muni (the bus and subway network of San Francisco) becomes an annoying hour and a half-long commute on bart (The regional train system) with 2-3 transfers

loceng 2y ago
Until Boring Company sets up multiple pickup points with Loop and Hyperloop tunnels; then will arguably be a max 20-30 minute ride. The dynamics of travel will dramatically change multiple industries, save for if the status quo establishment and industrial complexes through regulatory capture prevent the rapid expansion of the paradigm shift in transport that Boring Company is rapidly developing; the technology of which Elon needs for his Mars colony, and so it'll happen and be developed as far as is determined to be necessary to maximize its utility and safety.
- ebabani 2y ago
  How big is their network so far?
  - loceng 2y ago
    I haven't looked into it recently, however their Las Vegas network is going and expanding; 40 million people per year travel to Vegas, a great testbed and for exposure.
    - philipwhiuk 2y ago
      Why is the number of people in LA relevant when the ridership peak is 1,355 an hour.
      - loceng 2y ago
        [flagged]
        input_sh 2y ago
        Or they could do one bigger tunnel and put a train into it like every other city with a functional public transport?
        ianburrell 2y ago
        I like how the Vegas Loop tunnels are almost the same diameter as the London Underground deep lines. Glasgow subway is even smaller. Which means the tunnels are big enough to run metro and carry lots of people. It would be better to use larger tunnel, buy normal sized trains, and keep tall people from hitting their heads. It would also make sense to use one of the automated systems instead of trying to build pod system. It is also curious that Musk always want to do his way. Cause there is company that makes automated pods used at Heathrow. They should work for the current service and wouldn't be Tesla 3 with driver.
        ben_w 2y ago
        "if" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence. The criticisms of TBC fall into three camps: (1) this is terrifyingly unsafe, if a vehicle catches fire in those tunnels the occupants can't even open the doors and no vehicle behind them has a way to safely evacuate either; (2) they are still really expensive, like all other tunnels; (3) this compared poorly with all other modes of transport on every measure.
        loceng 2y ago
        Thanks for replying with some depth-specific concerns. Okay, so perhaps the worst case scenario is only goods are shipped in the tunnels - taking all semi-trucks off the roads for at least the major long-haul routes? All-or-nothing thinking without critically thinking or brainstorming through how adaptations for adoption could be made isn't helpful. Re: Safety Perhaps battery tech that eventually is safer than currently driving a vehicle, perhaps even safer then with the casualties from airplane crashes, or other solutions like before entering the tunnels everyone is provided emergency kit/safety-oxygen masks/goggles, etc; and maybe necessary for doors that have an emergency "blowout" handle to pull and have doors pop off their hinges? I'm not sure you're correct about being unable to open and get out of a vehicle in such the tunnels. We go through security checks, etc, at airports to save time - what level of "inconvenience" are people willing to implement or follow if a ~5 hour drive can turn into say a ~30 minute ride in a Hyperloop? Also, in the Hyperloop almost vacuum state that's planned, fire will be less of a problem - and perhaps a safety system could be implemented, especially if everyone is temporarily given an oxygen mask-goggles for each longer ride or all rides, that at certain points a fire extinguishing-suppression system could be implemented where non-oxygen gases are flooded into the tunnel between the point a fire is detected? Arguably so long as cost of implementation is less than or the same cost than current existing infrastructure costs, where the time savings are arguably up to invaluable - but a cost per ride for each person using the system will be determinable, then it can be a great alternative especially with the positives of how it allows transport regardless of winter weather conditions, etc.
      - rsynnott 2y ago
        ... Wait, is it actually _that_ low? That's, like, a high-frequency conventional bus route (ie not BRT). Like, what on earth was the point? Either use buses for same capacity, or build a real rail line for ten times the capacity. The highest capacity metro systems can do something like 40k/hour each direction (though one of those would clearly be overkill in this case, and something far more modest could be used).
    - occz 2y ago
      I wouldn't bring up the Las Vegas network if you're trying to advocate for the boring company, it's quite possibly the worst system of transportation that's ever been created. A farce in every aspect, benefiting no one.
      - loceng 2y ago
        [flagged]
      - jen20 2y ago
        I used the underground Tesla thing to get between the halls of the convention center during NAB - it was pretty reasonable, but not really scalable...
        occz 2y ago
        This is not the sort of thing you should measure on an individual user experience basis. Try running the numbers for the system, it would essentially get beaten by a medium-sized bus in capacity and times, at a fraction of the cost. Not to mention the large delta between what was promised versus what was delivered. There's probably a good case for fraud, if it were not for the fact that the purchasers want to save face they could probably sue.
        jen20 2y ago
        ... that is what I said. Good experience, not scalable. However, transit advocates need to realize that the experience of individual users _does_ matter.
    - vundercind 2y ago
      Is that the one that’s just teslas driving in a pretty normal tunnel at fairly unimpressive speeds & throughput?
      - vel0city 2y ago
        Teslas which still don't have reliable enough FSD to drive on a one-way only track so they need human drivers to drive 1-3 people at a time.
  - ffsm8 2y ago
    [flagged]
  - philipwhiuk 2y ago
    They have 2 or 3 tunnels of which at most 2 are actively in use.
  - askl 2y ago
    0
- 75times 2y ago
  [flagged]
- wodenokoto 2y ago
  By that time current senior staff is retired
- loceng 2y ago
  Hey dang, what exactly in my comment above warrants -5 (or more) downvotes?
  - llamaimperative 2y ago
    Extreme sycophancy without much critical thought. Might as well argue he’s going to give all his employees time machines to go buy $AAPL in the 90s as part of their comp plan. Would also get downvoted.
    - loceng 2y ago
      "Extreme sycophancy without much critical thought." A claim you make with no supportive arguments. My comment is packed with critical thought. Maybe you're just lacking understanding to unpack it? Or are you too arrogant to not think that you know all? And then ridiculous ad hominem that you think was clever enough to actually waste time to type out; what work do you have that you hate that you're procrastinating from working on? I'm really curious if you know what sycophancy means, and if so, how exactly my comment is benefitting me? I think it's more likely you're jealous of Elon's success, have past trauma from personal work experiences you're projecting onto him, and taking it out on anyone who notes his successes and extrapolates to estimate where his projects will lead to.
      - llamaimperative 2y ago
        wat. I don't think you know what ad hominem nor sycophancy mean. Have a good week!
  - coffeebeqn 2y ago
    You’re telling people to commute with a thing that doesn’t and very unlikely ever will exist?
    - loceng 2y ago
      https://www.boringcompany.com/vegas-loop https://www.boringcompany.com/vegas-loop - doesn't exist?
- VHRanger 2y ago
  Is this comment satire? It's really hard to tell. If it's not I encourage you to go look at the stellar success of the boring company in places like Las Vegas and reconsider your assessment of the future.
- BadHumans 2y ago
  This will never happen and the Hyperloop was a lie. Your comment reads like Elon propaganda.
chuckadams 2y ago
You need CalTrain to get to San Jose. BART should have gone all the way around the bay by now but CalTrain defends its turf like a honey badger.
- smcin 2y ago
  Transit in the Bay Area has very fragmented governance: 27 different transit agencies for 7.6m people in 9 counties with little coordination and no regional vision. By most measures, the Bay Area has the most fragmented public transit network in the country. See Seamless Bay Area if you want to make your voice heard for fixing this: https://www.seamlessbayarea.org/ https://www.seamlessbayarea.org/ For a map and list of the organizational insanity, see https://www.seamlessbayarea.org/blog/transitagencieslist https://www.seamlessbayarea.org/blog/transitagencieslist (2019). (Large tech companies like Google, Meta, Apple avoid all this by using private employee-only shuttles which take the freeway where possible). BART from the East Bay is in the process of being extended to downtown SJ (latest estimate: "2036", they are still debating single-bore vs twin-bore tunnel, to save money in construction). It's not fair to just blame BART vs Caltrain though, there are multiple cities that need to cooperate with other too: as we saw in the neverending saga of the CA High-Speed Rail project, people wanted a midpeninsula stop, but no midpeninsula city (Redwood City vs Palo Alto vs Mountain View) wanted to be the one to incur the increased traffic and enormous construction disruption from underground multistorey parking lots, so it was dropped. At least, Caltrain electrification is finally promised, fall 2024: https://www.caltrain.com/projects/electrification/project-benefits/caltrain-electrified-service-plan https://www.caltrain.com/projects/electrification/project-be... (more reliable (=> fewer breakdowns and delays), less noise, cleaner air quality)
- orblivion 2y ago
  They still haven't finished that leg? I was there 7 years ago and the plan was advertised on the maps.
  - sentientslug 2y ago
    You can get to San Jose on BART now but have to go all the way under and around the bay instead of directly south, so it’s not really worth it to go from SF to SJ using anything other than Caltrain.
whyenot 2y ago
You can take Caltrain to San Jose. I did this commute for several years when I lived in SF and worked in SJ. With electrification coming top Caltrain this fall, it should be faster than the current diesel trains. Depending on where Twitter's offices are in Palo Alto and San Jose, it probably won't be that bad.
- dredmorbius 2y ago
  BART runs with 20 minute headways on longer routes (and as little as 4 minutes through San Francisco). The six CalTrain "baby bullet" express trains run hourly at best, with long service lapses mid-day and in the late evenings. Locals run more often (about every 10--20 minutes during peak commute hours) but add a half-hour to the just over one-hour express schedule. (Both are still faster by far than driving, particularly during rush hour.) CalTrain: <https://www.caltrain.com/media/22502/download https://www.caltrain.com/media/22502/download> BART's Green Line (Daly City - Beryessa / North San Jose) departs every 20 minutes from 4:55 am though 7:36 pm (southbound) and 4:59 am through 6:49 pm (northbound): <https://www.bart.gov/sites/default/files/2024-01/January%2015_2024%20WD%20Service%20for%20Berryessa%20N%20San%20Jose%20to%20Daly%20City%20%28Green%29%20Line.pdf https://www.bart.gov/sites/default/files/2024-01/January%201...>
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  Are they upgrading the tracks as well? Diesel trains can run at 80mph no problem, which is about the maximum any standard US railroad supports. If the track is built to high speed standards you could go faster.
  - jen20 2y ago
    The track has a lot of at-grade intersections with roads running through the mid-peninsula - it seems unlikely they'll be running trains at 80mph.
    - skissane 2y ago
      At-grade intersections can be removed. Melbourne, Australia has been running a project since 2015 – scheduled to continue until at least 2030 – to remove at-grade intersections (or "level crossings" as we call them) on suburban rail lines. They've already removed 83, and by 2030 plan to have removed 110. I'm not sure of the total cost, but I'd say in the ballpark of US$5-10 billion. The removal is done by a combination of elevating the rail line, trenching the rail line, and leaving the rail line at the same level but building road bridges over it – adopting whichever solution is most feasible and cost-effective for any given at-grade intersection. The project is run and paid for by the state government, with the federal government contributing some of the funding. Australia's State of Victoria: population close to 7 million, economy almost US$300 billion (Gross State Product), annual state government budget around US$70 billion. California: population close to 40 million, economy almost US$4 trillion (GSP), annual state government budget of almost US$300 billion. If Victoria can afford it, California can too.
ncr100 2y ago
.. and being "close" to the occasional death: The inter-city CalTrain (the outside of the train) is used frequently by those amongst us who pursue suicide, and aside from that dropping a mini-nuke on society / friends + family, another side-effect is 2-3 hours of delay on CalTrain. Overall, a traumatic and unhealthy commute. Living in SF and working in South Bay sucked for me, when I did that, for that reason in particular.

by htrp 2y ago

loceng 2y ago

Until Boring Company sets up multiple pickup points with Loop and Hyperloop tunnels; then will arguably be a max 20-30 minute ride. The dynamics of travel will dramatically change multiple industries, save for if the status quo establishment and industrial complexes through regulatory capture prevent the rapid expansion of the paradigm shift in transport that Boring Company is rapidly developing; the technology of which Elon needs for his Mars colony, and so it'll happen and be developed as far as is determined to be necessary to maximize its utility and safety.

ebabani 2y ago
How big is their network so far?
- loceng 2y ago
  I haven't looked into it recently, however their Las Vegas network is going and expanding; 40 million people per year travel to Vegas, a great testbed and for exposure.
  - philipwhiuk 2y ago
    Why is the number of people in LA relevant when the ridership peak is 1,355 an hour.
    - loceng 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - input_sh 2y ago
        Or they could do one bigger tunnel and put a train into it like every other city with a functional public transport?
        ianburrell 2y ago
        I like how the Vegas Loop tunnels are almost the same diameter as the London Underground deep lines. Glasgow subway is even smaller. Which means the tunnels are big enough to run metro and carry lots of people. It would be better to use larger tunnel, buy normal sized trains, and keep tall people from hitting their heads. It would also make sense to use one of the automated systems instead of trying to build pod system. It is also curious that Musk always want to do his way. Cause there is company that makes automated pods used at Heathrow. They should work for the current service and wouldn't be Tesla 3 with driver.
      - ben_w 2y ago
        "if" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence. The criticisms of TBC fall into three camps: (1) this is terrifyingly unsafe, if a vehicle catches fire in those tunnels the occupants can't even open the doors and no vehicle behind them has a way to safely evacuate either; (2) they are still really expensive, like all other tunnels; (3) this compared poorly with all other modes of transport on every measure.
        loceng 2y ago
        Thanks for replying with some depth-specific concerns. Okay, so perhaps the worst case scenario is only goods are shipped in the tunnels - taking all semi-trucks off the roads for at least the major long-haul routes? All-or-nothing thinking without critically thinking or brainstorming through how adaptations for adoption could be made isn't helpful. Re: Safety Perhaps battery tech that eventually is safer than currently driving a vehicle, perhaps even safer then with the casualties from airplane crashes, or other solutions like before entering the tunnels everyone is provided emergency kit/safety-oxygen masks/goggles, etc; and maybe necessary for doors that have an emergency "blowout" handle to pull and have doors pop off their hinges? I'm not sure you're correct about being unable to open and get out of a vehicle in such the tunnels. We go through security checks, etc, at airports to save time - what level of "inconvenience" are people willing to implement or follow if a ~5 hour drive can turn into say a ~30 minute ride in a Hyperloop? Also, in the Hyperloop almost vacuum state that's planned, fire will be less of a problem - and perhaps a safety system could be implemented, especially if everyone is temporarily given an oxygen mask-goggles for each longer ride or all rides, that at certain points a fire extinguishing-suppression system could be implemented where non-oxygen gases are flooded into the tunnel between the point a fire is detected? Arguably so long as cost of implementation is less than or the same cost than current existing infrastructure costs, where the time savings are arguably up to invaluable - but a cost per ride for each person using the system will be determinable, then it can be a great alternative especially with the positives of how it allows transport regardless of winter weather conditions, etc.
    - rsynnott 2y ago
      ... Wait, is it actually _that_ low? That's, like, a high-frequency conventional bus route (ie not BRT). Like, what on earth was the point? Either use buses for same capacity, or build a real rail line for ten times the capacity. The highest capacity metro systems can do something like 40k/hour each direction (though one of those would clearly be overkill in this case, and something far more modest could be used).
  - occz 2y ago
    I wouldn't bring up the Las Vegas network if you're trying to advocate for the boring company, it's quite possibly the worst system of transportation that's ever been created. A farce in every aspect, benefiting no one.
    - loceng 2y ago
      [flagged]
    - jen20 2y ago
      I used the underground Tesla thing to get between the halls of the convention center during NAB - it was pretty reasonable, but not really scalable...
      - occz 2y ago
        This is not the sort of thing you should measure on an individual user experience basis. Try running the numbers for the system, it would essentially get beaten by a medium-sized bus in capacity and times, at a fraction of the cost. Not to mention the large delta between what was promised versus what was delivered. There's probably a good case for fraud, if it were not for the fact that the purchasers want to save face they could probably sue.
        jen20 2y ago
        ... that is what I said. Good experience, not scalable. However, transit advocates need to realize that the experience of individual users _does_ matter.
  - vundercind 2y ago
    Is that the one that’s just teslas driving in a pretty normal tunnel at fairly unimpressive speeds & throughput?
    - vel0city 2y ago
      Teslas which still don't have reliable enough FSD to drive on a one-way only track so they need human drivers to drive 1-3 people at a time.
- ffsm8 2y ago
  [flagged]
- philipwhiuk 2y ago
  They have 2 or 3 tunnels of which at most 2 are actively in use.
- askl 2y ago
  0
75times 2y ago
[flagged]
wodenokoto 2y ago
By that time current senior staff is retired
loceng 2y ago
Hey dang, what exactly in my comment above warrants -5 (or more) downvotes?
- llamaimperative 2y ago
  Extreme sycophancy without much critical thought. Might as well argue he’s going to give all his employees time machines to go buy $AAPL in the 90s as part of their comp plan. Would also get downvoted.
  - loceng 2y ago
    "Extreme sycophancy without much critical thought." A claim you make with no supportive arguments. My comment is packed with critical thought. Maybe you're just lacking understanding to unpack it? Or are you too arrogant to not think that you know all? And then ridiculous ad hominem that you think was clever enough to actually waste time to type out; what work do you have that you hate that you're procrastinating from working on? I'm really curious if you know what sycophancy means, and if so, how exactly my comment is benefitting me? I think it's more likely you're jealous of Elon's success, have past trauma from personal work experiences you're projecting onto him, and taking it out on anyone who notes his successes and extrapolates to estimate where his projects will lead to.
    - llamaimperative 2y ago
      wat. I don't think you know what ad hominem nor sycophancy mean. Have a good week!
- coffeebeqn 2y ago
  You’re telling people to commute with a thing that doesn’t and very unlikely ever will exist?
  - loceng 2y ago
    https://www.boringcompany.com/vegas-loop https://www.boringcompany.com/vegas-loop - doesn't exist?
VHRanger 2y ago
Is this comment satire? It's really hard to tell. If it's not I encourage you to go look at the stellar success of the boring company in places like Las Vegas and reconsider your assessment of the future.
BadHumans 2y ago
This will never happen and the Hyperloop was a lie. Your comment reads like Elon propaganda.

chuckadams 2y ago

You need CalTrain to get to San Jose. BART should have gone all the way around the bay by now but CalTrain defends its turf like a honey badger.

smcin 2y ago
Transit in the Bay Area has very fragmented governance: 27 different transit agencies for 7.6m people in 9 counties with little coordination and no regional vision. By most measures, the Bay Area has the most fragmented public transit network in the country. See Seamless Bay Area if you want to make your voice heard for fixing this: https://www.seamlessbayarea.org/ https://www.seamlessbayarea.org/ For a map and list of the organizational insanity, see https://www.seamlessbayarea.org/blog/transitagencieslist https://www.seamlessbayarea.org/blog/transitagencieslist (2019). (Large tech companies like Google, Meta, Apple avoid all this by using private employee-only shuttles which take the freeway where possible). BART from the East Bay is in the process of being extended to downtown SJ (latest estimate: "2036", they are still debating single-bore vs twin-bore tunnel, to save money in construction). It's not fair to just blame BART vs Caltrain though, there are multiple cities that need to cooperate with other too: as we saw in the neverending saga of the CA High-Speed Rail project, people wanted a midpeninsula stop, but no midpeninsula city (Redwood City vs Palo Alto vs Mountain View) wanted to be the one to incur the increased traffic and enormous construction disruption from underground multistorey parking lots, so it was dropped. At least, Caltrain electrification is finally promised, fall 2024: https://www.caltrain.com/projects/electrification/project-benefits/caltrain-electrified-service-plan https://www.caltrain.com/projects/electrification/project-be... (more reliable (=> fewer breakdowns and delays), less noise, cleaner air quality)
orblivion 2y ago
They still haven't finished that leg? I was there 7 years ago and the plan was advertised on the maps.
- sentientslug 2y ago
  You can get to San Jose on BART now but have to go all the way under and around the bay instead of directly south, so it’s not really worth it to go from SF to SJ using anything other than Caltrain.

whyenot 2y ago

You can take Caltrain to San Jose. I did this commute for several years when I lived in SF and worked in SJ. With electrification coming top Caltrain this fall, it should be faster than the current diesel trains. Depending on where Twitter's offices are in Palo Alto and San Jose, it probably won't be that bad.

dredmorbius 2y ago
BART runs with 20 minute headways on longer routes (and as little as 4 minutes through San Francisco). The six CalTrain "baby bullet" express trains run hourly at best, with long service lapses mid-day and in the late evenings. Locals run more often (about every 10--20 minutes during peak commute hours) but add a half-hour to the just over one-hour express schedule. (Both are still faster by far than driving, particularly during rush hour.) CalTrain: <https://www.caltrain.com/media/22502/download https://www.caltrain.com/media/22502/download> BART's Green Line (Daly City - Beryessa / North San Jose) departs every 20 minutes from 4:55 am though 7:36 pm (southbound) and 4:59 am through 6:49 pm (northbound): <https://www.bart.gov/sites/default/files/2024-01/January%2015_2024%20WD%20Service%20for%20Berryessa%20N%20San%20Jose%20to%20Daly%20City%20%28Green%29%20Line.pdf https://www.bart.gov/sites/default/files/2024-01/January%201...>
SoftTalker 2y ago
Are they upgrading the tracks as well? Diesel trains can run at 80mph no problem, which is about the maximum any standard US railroad supports. If the track is built to high speed standards you could go faster.
- jen20 2y ago
  The track has a lot of at-grade intersections with roads running through the mid-peninsula - it seems unlikely they'll be running trains at 80mph.
  - skissane 2y ago
    At-grade intersections can be removed. Melbourne, Australia has been running a project since 2015 – scheduled to continue until at least 2030 – to remove at-grade intersections (or "level crossings" as we call them) on suburban rail lines. They've already removed 83, and by 2030 plan to have removed 110. I'm not sure of the total cost, but I'd say in the ballpark of US$5-10 billion. The removal is done by a combination of elevating the rail line, trenching the rail line, and leaving the rail line at the same level but building road bridges over it – adopting whichever solution is most feasible and cost-effective for any given at-grade intersection. The project is run and paid for by the state government, with the federal government contributing some of the funding. Australia's State of Victoria: population close to 7 million, economy almost US$300 billion (Gross State Product), annual state government budget around US$70 billion. California: population close to 40 million, economy almost US$4 trillion (GSP), annual state government budget of almost US$300 billion. If Victoria can afford it, California can too.

ncr100 2y ago

.. and being "close" to the occasional death: The inter-city CalTrain (the outside of the train) is used frequently by those amongst us who pursue suicide, and aside from that dropping a mini-nuke on society / friends + family, another side-effect is 2-3 hours of delay on CalTrain. Overall, a traumatic and unhealthy commute. Living in SF and working in South Bay sucked for me, when I did that, for that reason in particular.