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I don’t think there are any modern startup “inventions” which bother me more than meal replacements like Soylent. It’s not that there’s something wrong with hav

I don’t think there are any modern startup “inventions” which bother me more than meal replacements like Soylent. It’s not that there’s something wrong with having a nutrition shake to replace a meal if you’re in a rush. It’s more that food, cooking, and eating (alone and with other people) seem like some of the most human things you can do. And so trying to optimize them out of existence feels wrong, a crime against culture. Long after the AIs have replaced entire classes of jobs and hobbies, cooking will still be around.

etrautmann 2y ago
This is a silly take IMO. I love eating and cooking good food. I also sometimes need something healthy on the road or in between classes etc. Vanishingly few people replace all food with Soylent. It’s fine as a fill-in between meals.
- keiferski 2y ago
  As I wrote, it’s not that having a fill-in meal is an issue. It’s the attitude that food and cooking are some kind of unfortunate requirement that should be optimized out of existence - which is the mentality that companies like Soylent put out there, and what their fans want. I think it’s largely a consequence of not having a respect for food, and that mentality is not welcome in places like Japan, France, Italy, etc. where there is a deep cultural respect for food.
  - lidavidm 2y ago
    Oh boy. Hope you never run into a CalorieMate or a jelly squeeze packet. Or the stoveless apartments.
    - keiferski 2y ago
      Those are intended for quick meal replacements, not replacements for eating entirely. And stove less apartments are usually for people that eat out, not people that are trying to replace meals with shakes.
  - safety1st 2y ago
    Fortunately this mindset is limited to a vanishingly small number of rootless young men who are lost in the scam of "hustle culture" - they are overrepresented on HN, but they are also mostly alone and childless, so unlikely to pass the mindset to the next generation
    - AlexeyBelov 2y ago
      What a weird thing to say. It sounds so passive, like you don't want to have a conversation at all and only make a meta-level comment about other people. And the comment you're making is pretty mean, let's be honest. Do you think you could in theory have a discussion around this subject in a more mentally healthy way?
      - safety1st 2y ago
        I mean, no, probably not. Because the person I replied to was pointing out that there are people who want to completely abandon the ritual of eating meals, which happens to be one of the primary ways the human race has socialized for thousands of years. So if any of those weirdos want to, you know, eat a meal, then sure we could have that discussion over one, but this brings us to the second part of my comment, which is that the number of people who are lunatic enough to think that abandoning the eating of meals is a good idea, is vanishingly small. I've never met one in person. The human race eats meals. The idea that you would optimize meals out of your life is more or less the province of like five antisocial, terminally online dudes. If these five guys decide to withdraw from society, be pariahs and wear hair shirts and all that well it's a free country but don't count me in
  - etrautmann 2y ago
    I think this is catastrophizing some cheeky marketing hyperbole. You can have deep respect for food and occasionally drink a Soylent.
    - keiferski 2y ago
      I agree, but 5-10 years ago "Soylent replaces eating" was very much a trendy cultural thing to believe.
      - etrautmann 2y ago
        but really? I was living in SF and drinking soylent in grad school then, and aside from a few maximalists online, nobody I knew ever really thought or wanted that. To me it seemed like dopamine fasting or other silly trends that news outlets will breathlessly write about but everyone else takes in stride as a kinda minor thing they might do occasionally.
        keiferski 2y ago
        Search for Soylent on HN and you’ll see many topics discussing what I mentioned
        Karrot_Kream 2y ago
        If you read any shaving related Reddit forum you'll end up thinking that cartridge razors are marketing scams that dupe the uninformed and most people are actually just shaving with double-edge razors. In reality millions of people who don't actually care much for the act of grooming other than to hit aesthetic goals will use a cartridge razor because it does a good enough job. You'll find many, many more enthusiastic posts from the former double-edged shaving enthusiasts than the latter cartridge-using realists. You're seeing the same thing with Soylent. My friends who didn't enjoy cooking much before Soylent just had lots of protein bars, TV dinners, and takeout. Now they do the same thing but also drink lots of Soylent. The meal replacement maximalists are loud online because that's the only space they can create consensus in. It's the same reason most loud, minority opinions are overrepresented online.
dataflow 2y ago
How do you feel about most humans no longer farming, hunting, digging or searching for water, fishing, etc.?
- keiferski 2y ago
  I think people would have a better connection to nature if they did these things more often. But cooking and eating is sort of an umbrella activity for all of those - everyone in the village/tribe/etc. has to eat, and usually they’d come together in one place to do so. Farming or searching for water don’t have the same centralizing social effect.
  - dataflow 2y ago
    Thanks, yeah, that's what I was hoping to tease out -- the fact that there's also a social element to it.
- bigstrat2003 2y ago
  I think that everyone should do most, if not all, of those things at some point in their lives. It doesn't have to be an everyday thing. But I think that a lot of people in modern societies are completely unaware of how lucky they are to not have to do those things any more, and would greatly benefit from the perspective.
jessriedel 2y ago
Humans spent essentially the same number of millennia hunting animals as they did cooking and eating, and it was profoundly integrated into culture.
Kiro 2y ago
As someone who hates cooking, I don't understand the argument. Why would I care about whether something is a "human thing" or not? "Crime against culture" means nothing and could be said about anything.
- keiferski 2y ago
  A lot of words have been written about the role of food in human history and culture. Here’s one from the OP’s blog: https://jakeseliger.com/2024/02/26/food-and-friends-part-i-food-is-social-life/ https://jakeseliger.com/2024/02/26/food-and-friends-part-i-f... The argument is: cooking and eating has been a fundamental human activity for millennia, one that brings people together, transmits culture, language, etc. - and to optimize it away as a problem is to disregard something very important about being a human being.
  - Kiro 2y ago
    I understand the importance historically but I don't agree that it's something very important about being a human being. Someone trying to impose that on me is as unconvincing as a religious person trying to convert me. Give me practical arguments. When I eat I want to do it alone, which is something you highlighted in your original comment, but hearing you now it's all about to the social aspects. I'm not interested in that. If I want to socialize there are far better venues for me personally. I find eating out with other people a lose-lose. The food distracts me from the conversation but the conversation distracts me from the food, and all of a sudden it's gone before I even had the chance to reflect on the taste.
    - frutiger 2y ago
      > The food distracts me from the conversation but the conversation distracts me from the food, and all of a sudden it's gone before I even had the chance to reflect on the taste. Chew carefully. Eat slowly. Sip water. Your digestive system will thank you for it.
    - keiferski 2y ago
      A few points: 1. History and evolution are ongoing things. They aren’t “done” and in the past. Today, right now, people use food as an important part of their culture, whether that be immigrant parents teaching their kids recipes from their home culture, a brother making food for his dying sibling (as in the link), or two friends having dinner. And that’s only on the consumption side - not to mention the entire production industrial complex that employs millions of people globally to make and prepare food - and has done so for thousands of years. “Food gatherer and preparer" probably has a claim to being the oldest profession. Food is so ingrained in human history and culture it’s basically impossible to imagine civilization without it. Which was my point about it being a human thing. 2. Your mention of religion is actually helpful too, because I think a similar attitude is prevalent when discussing religious beliefs: “That was a historical thing and it doesn’t have much effect on anything today.” Which is very much not the case; everything in the contemporary world has been shaped by religious beliefs, from the concept of the Self, individualism, the structure of political systems, democracy, universalism, on and on. Modernity is in no way a fresh beginning or clean slate in which the past doesn’t apply. That doesn’t mean you need to believe in XYZ religion today, but to deny that it has any contemporary relevance is just incorrect. 3. On the evolutionary front, the fact is that you evolved to eat in a group - the possibility of someone sitting alone eating a meal made by others basically didn’t exist until a century ago. So it formed who you are today, whether you like it or not. 4. Personally, I like to cook alone. It requires a focused approach that prevents you from scrolling TikTok or being distracted by innumerable other things. I also like to cook foods that remind me of my origins – for example, I like making pierogi, as I'm Polish and from the region where a certain type of pierogi are from. I make them using the rolling pin that was my late Polish grandma's, which also makes it a special experience. Food culture doesn't need to a social thing at all. I don’t want to assume what your opinion is but it seems to be something like, "None of that matters, all that matters is that it tastes good, comes in ready-to-eat packaging, and can be eaten alone." Which seems to me like the most depressing, reductive approach possible to something with so much cultural significance and history. Do you think the same thing about art or architecture? Literature? Films? This being HN; I’m gonna guess you’re a technical person, and so you might gain more of an appreciation for food by watching some YouTube videos on chefs working. The skill and craftsmanship can be truly impressive.
katzenversteher 2y ago
I understand your point but I believe McDonalds and the likes are worse. Sure some people hang out there together, in fact I even have fond memories of getting a Happy Meal with a shitty toys with my little sister but the food has little nutritional value, there is no "love" and the whole "feel good" situation was planned by some corporate guys in an office...
- keiferski 2y ago
  Similar but different issue. McDonald’s is fake industrialized non-nutritional food wearing the mask of classic Americana burger culture. Soylent is saying that culture doesn’t matter, only nutrients do. A bit like Brave New World vs. the goop in The Matrix. I’m not sure which is worse…
batch12 2y ago
I enjoy cooking for a few reasons. I tell people it's because it's so different from what I do at work. There's some truth to that. The main reason is because I like doing things that make people happy. There's something very satisfying about cooking a good meal and enjoying it with others.
Aeolun 2y ago
You can enjoy Soylent? By yourself or with others? Just because the meal is done in 5 minutes does not mean it’s not enjoyable.
gosub100 2y ago
Cooking is a huge waste of time. Think about the hours wasted toiling in a kitchen, doing dishes, moving little items up and down and setting them here, now there, now wipe up the mess. All for what, so I can sit still for 10 minutes and taste a good thing, then get up and clean up that mess? If I could swap out my stomach for a Lithium Ion battery I would.
Workaccount2 2y ago
I lived on a DIY total meal replacement shake for about a year: Pros: - Feel fucking amazing. Not just digestive, but mind, energy, mood, all over feel great. - Perfect poops. I'd poop the same ideal poop everyday at the same time. Two wipes and done. - Cheap-ish. DIY made it much cheaper than commercial products. Allowed fine tuning too. Was something like $7/day. - Never hungry. I had three shakes a day and was very satiating. I would go months without experiencing the feeling of hunger. - Lots of water. Each shake had ~500ml of water in it, which made it much easier to stay hydrated. - Maximized exercise gains. Was tailored for working out, so I didn't leave anything on the table due to nutritional deficits. Cons: - The taste and texture. Bad and worse. Wasn't excruciating to get down, but fell into the "It's not good but I'll still have it" camp. - No variety. Basically the same thing all the time. - Weak jaw. Your jaw muscles weaken quickly when not being used all the time. It's surprising to eat regular food and find your jaw aching and tired after half a sandwich. - Planning. Kind of minor but I would need to plan a bit more to make sure I had shakes ready to go. They tasted best if they could sit for an hour or so after mixing, and where chilled. I gave in eventually because regular food is just so enjoyable and because GNC stopped making the micro nutrient powder that was essential too it.
- itsoktocry 2y ago
  >because GNC stopped making the micro nutrient powder that was essential too it. Your anecdote is interesting, but it seems biased towards, "everything was better and healthier, but I didn't get the joy of food". I'm skeptical that you were getting optimal nutrition from some powder produced in a factory in Mexico. If everything about this was "better", I assume your original diet was terrible.
  - throwaway2037 2y ago
    > getting optimal nutrition Did OP claim this? I didn't see it, unless deleted on edit.
    - itsoktocry 2y ago
      >Did OP claim this? I didn't see it, unless deleted on edit. It's implied, otherwise what's the point of his post? What is someone trying to achieve by drinking entire meals in a shake, if not optimal nutrition? What other benefits are there?
theskypirate 2y ago
I'll never understand why people feel they have a right to be angry about random new foods that other people invent. No one asked you.

etrautmann 2y ago

This is a silly take IMO. I love eating and cooking good food. I also sometimes need something healthy on the road or in between classes etc. Vanishingly few people replace all food with Soylent. It’s fine as a fill-in between meals.

keiferski 2y ago
As I wrote, it’s not that having a fill-in meal is an issue. It’s the attitude that food and cooking are some kind of unfortunate requirement that should be optimized out of existence - which is the mentality that companies like Soylent put out there, and what their fans want. I think it’s largely a consequence of not having a respect for food, and that mentality is not welcome in places like Japan, France, Italy, etc. where there is a deep cultural respect for food.
- lidavidm 2y ago
  Oh boy. Hope you never run into a CalorieMate or a jelly squeeze packet. Or the stoveless apartments.
  - keiferski 2y ago
    Those are intended for quick meal replacements, not replacements for eating entirely. And stove less apartments are usually for people that eat out, not people that are trying to replace meals with shakes.
- safety1st 2y ago
  Fortunately this mindset is limited to a vanishingly small number of rootless young men who are lost in the scam of "hustle culture" - they are overrepresented on HN, but they are also mostly alone and childless, so unlikely to pass the mindset to the next generation
  - AlexeyBelov 2y ago
    What a weird thing to say. It sounds so passive, like you don't want to have a conversation at all and only make a meta-level comment about other people. And the comment you're making is pretty mean, let's be honest. Do you think you could in theory have a discussion around this subject in a more mentally healthy way?
    - safety1st 2y ago
      I mean, no, probably not. Because the person I replied to was pointing out that there are people who want to completely abandon the ritual of eating meals, which happens to be one of the primary ways the human race has socialized for thousands of years. So if any of those weirdos want to, you know, eat a meal, then sure we could have that discussion over one, but this brings us to the second part of my comment, which is that the number of people who are lunatic enough to think that abandoning the eating of meals is a good idea, is vanishingly small. I've never met one in person. The human race eats meals. The idea that you would optimize meals out of your life is more or less the province of like five antisocial, terminally online dudes. If these five guys decide to withdraw from society, be pariahs and wear hair shirts and all that well it's a free country but don't count me in
- etrautmann 2y ago
  I think this is catastrophizing some cheeky marketing hyperbole. You can have deep respect for food and occasionally drink a Soylent.
  - keiferski 2y ago
    I agree, but 5-10 years ago "Soylent replaces eating" was very much a trendy cultural thing to believe.
    - etrautmann 2y ago
      but really? I was living in SF and drinking soylent in grad school then, and aside from a few maximalists online, nobody I knew ever really thought or wanted that. To me it seemed like dopamine fasting or other silly trends that news outlets will breathlessly write about but everyone else takes in stride as a kinda minor thing they might do occasionally.
      - keiferski 2y ago
        Search for Soylent on HN and you’ll see many topics discussing what I mentioned
        Karrot_Kream 2y ago
        If you read any shaving related Reddit forum you'll end up thinking that cartridge razors are marketing scams that dupe the uninformed and most people are actually just shaving with double-edge razors. In reality millions of people who don't actually care much for the act of grooming other than to hit aesthetic goals will use a cartridge razor because it does a good enough job. You'll find many, many more enthusiastic posts from the former double-edged shaving enthusiasts than the latter cartridge-using realists. You're seeing the same thing with Soylent. My friends who didn't enjoy cooking much before Soylent just had lots of protein bars, TV dinners, and takeout. Now they do the same thing but also drink lots of Soylent. The meal replacement maximalists are loud online because that's the only space they can create consensus in. It's the same reason most loud, minority opinions are overrepresented online.

dataflow 2y ago

How do you feel about most humans no longer farming, hunting, digging or searching for water, fishing, etc.?

keiferski 2y ago
I think people would have a better connection to nature if they did these things more often. But cooking and eating is sort of an umbrella activity for all of those - everyone in the village/tribe/etc. has to eat, and usually they’d come together in one place to do so. Farming or searching for water don’t have the same centralizing social effect.
- dataflow 2y ago
  Thanks, yeah, that's what I was hoping to tease out -- the fact that there's also a social element to it.
bigstrat2003 2y ago
I think that everyone should do most, if not all, of those things at some point in their lives. It doesn't have to be an everyday thing. But I think that a lot of people in modern societies are completely unaware of how lucky they are to not have to do those things any more, and would greatly benefit from the perspective.

jessriedel 2y ago

Humans spent essentially the same number of millennia hunting animals as they did cooking and eating, and it was profoundly integrated into culture.

Kiro 2y ago

As someone who hates cooking, I don't understand the argument. Why would I care about whether something is a "human thing" or not? "Crime against culture" means nothing and could be said about anything.

keiferski 2y ago
A lot of words have been written about the role of food in human history and culture. Here’s one from the OP’s blog: https://jakeseliger.com/2024/02/26/food-and-friends-part-i-food-is-social-life/ https://jakeseliger.com/2024/02/26/food-and-friends-part-i-f... The argument is: cooking and eating has been a fundamental human activity for millennia, one that brings people together, transmits culture, language, etc. - and to optimize it away as a problem is to disregard something very important about being a human being.
- Kiro 2y ago
  I understand the importance historically but I don't agree that it's something very important about being a human being. Someone trying to impose that on me is as unconvincing as a religious person trying to convert me. Give me practical arguments. When I eat I want to do it alone, which is something you highlighted in your original comment, but hearing you now it's all about to the social aspects. I'm not interested in that. If I want to socialize there are far better venues for me personally. I find eating out with other people a lose-lose. The food distracts me from the conversation but the conversation distracts me from the food, and all of a sudden it's gone before I even had the chance to reflect on the taste.
  - frutiger 2y ago
    > The food distracts me from the conversation but the conversation distracts me from the food, and all of a sudden it's gone before I even had the chance to reflect on the taste. Chew carefully. Eat slowly. Sip water. Your digestive system will thank you for it.
  - keiferski 2y ago
    A few points: 1. History and evolution are ongoing things. They aren’t “done” and in the past. Today, right now, people use food as an important part of their culture, whether that be immigrant parents teaching their kids recipes from their home culture, a brother making food for his dying sibling (as in the link), or two friends having dinner. And that’s only on the consumption side - not to mention the entire production industrial complex that employs millions of people globally to make and prepare food - and has done so for thousands of years. “Food gatherer and preparer" probably has a claim to being the oldest profession. Food is so ingrained in human history and culture it’s basically impossible to imagine civilization without it. Which was my point about it being a human thing. 2. Your mention of religion is actually helpful too, because I think a similar attitude is prevalent when discussing religious beliefs: “That was a historical thing and it doesn’t have much effect on anything today.” Which is very much not the case; everything in the contemporary world has been shaped by religious beliefs, from the concept of the Self, individualism, the structure of political systems, democracy, universalism, on and on. Modernity is in no way a fresh beginning or clean slate in which the past doesn’t apply. That doesn’t mean you need to believe in XYZ religion today, but to deny that it has any contemporary relevance is just incorrect. 3. On the evolutionary front, the fact is that you evolved to eat in a group - the possibility of someone sitting alone eating a meal made by others basically didn’t exist until a century ago. So it formed who you are today, whether you like it or not. 4. Personally, I like to cook alone. It requires a focused approach that prevents you from scrolling TikTok or being distracted by innumerable other things. I also like to cook foods that remind me of my origins – for example, I like making pierogi, as I'm Polish and from the region where a certain type of pierogi are from. I make them using the rolling pin that was my late Polish grandma's, which also makes it a special experience. Food culture doesn't need to a social thing at all. I don’t want to assume what your opinion is but it seems to be something like, "None of that matters, all that matters is that it tastes good, comes in ready-to-eat packaging, and can be eaten alone." Which seems to me like the most depressing, reductive approach possible to something with so much cultural significance and history. Do you think the same thing about art or architecture? Literature? Films? This being HN; I’m gonna guess you’re a technical person, and so you might gain more of an appreciation for food by watching some YouTube videos on chefs working. The skill and craftsmanship can be truly impressive.

katzenversteher 2y ago

I understand your point but I believe McDonalds and the likes are worse. Sure some people hang out there together, in fact I even have fond memories of getting a Happy Meal with a shitty toys with my little sister but the food has little nutritional value, there is no "love" and the whole "feel good" situation was planned by some corporate guys in an office...

keiferski 2y ago
Similar but different issue. McDonald’s is fake industrialized non-nutritional food wearing the mask of classic Americana burger culture. Soylent is saying that culture doesn’t matter, only nutrients do. A bit like Brave New World vs. the goop in The Matrix. I’m not sure which is worse…

batch12 2y ago

I enjoy cooking for a few reasons. I tell people it's because it's so different from what I do at work. There's some truth to that. The main reason is because I like doing things that make people happy. There's something very satisfying about cooking a good meal and enjoying it with others.

Aeolun 2y ago

You can enjoy Soylent? By yourself or with others? Just because the meal is done in 5 minutes does not mean it’s not enjoyable.

gosub100 2y ago

Cooking is a huge waste of time. Think about the hours wasted toiling in a kitchen, doing dishes, moving little items up and down and setting them here, now there, now wipe up the mess. All for what, so I can sit still for 10 minutes and taste a good thing, then get up and clean up that mess? If I could swap out my stomach for a Lithium Ion battery I would.

Workaccount2 2y ago

I lived on a DIY total meal replacement shake for about a year: Pros: - Feel fucking amazing. Not just digestive, but mind, energy, mood, all over feel great. - Perfect poops. I'd poop the same ideal poop everyday at the same time. Two wipes and done. - Cheap-ish. DIY made it much cheaper than commercial products. Allowed fine tuning too. Was something like $7/day. - Never hungry. I had three shakes a day and was very satiating. I would go months without experiencing the feeling of hunger. - Lots of water. Each shake had ~500ml of water in it, which made it much easier to stay hydrated. - Maximized exercise gains. Was tailored for working out, so I didn't leave anything on the table due to nutritional deficits. Cons: - The taste and texture. Bad and worse. Wasn't excruciating to get down, but fell into the "It's not good but I'll still have it" camp. - No variety. Basically the same thing all the time. - Weak jaw. Your jaw muscles weaken quickly when not being used all the time. It's surprising to eat regular food and find your jaw aching and tired after half a sandwich. - Planning. Kind of minor but I would need to plan a bit more to make sure I had shakes ready to go. They tasted best if they could sit for an hour or so after mixing, and where chilled. I gave in eventually because regular food is just so enjoyable and because GNC stopped making the micro nutrient powder that was essential too it.

itsoktocry 2y ago
>because GNC stopped making the micro nutrient powder that was essential too it. Your anecdote is interesting, but it seems biased towards, "everything was better and healthier, but I didn't get the joy of food". I'm skeptical that you were getting optimal nutrition from some powder produced in a factory in Mexico. If everything about this was "better", I assume your original diet was terrible.
- throwaway2037 2y ago
  > getting optimal nutrition Did OP claim this? I didn't see it, unless deleted on edit.
  - itsoktocry 2y ago
    >Did OP claim this? I didn't see it, unless deleted on edit. It's implied, otherwise what's the point of his post? What is someone trying to achieve by drinking entire meals in a shake, if not optimal nutrition? What other benefits are there?

theskypirate 2y ago

I'll never understand why people feel they have a right to be angry about random new foods that other people invent. No one asked you.