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No permission was required, although we did explain we only were going to use a small area for the pollinator garden.(It's about 4 feet by 30 feet). We just wan

No permission was required, although we did explain we only were going to use a small area for the pollinator garden.(It's about 4 feet by 30 feet). We just wanted to make sure there wasn't a rule against it. My neighborhood doesn't have a HOA.

artursapek 2y ago
I can’t imagine being this deferential towards the government
- Loughla 2y ago
  I was just watching Clarkson's farm, and commenting on that. The town council tells him how he can and cannot use his farm. That just wouldn't fly here in my part of the States. A building would get burned down. I know it's a double edged sword, but the freedom to do what I want with my own space really is something I take for granted.
  - no_wizard 2y ago
    Land use laws and culture around land use differ greatly. The further you get out from urban and suburban areas the less you typically encounter. Rural areas tend to have less land use laws than urban/ suburban areas.
  - 5040 2y ago
    America is really bad for this sort of thing though? One example that stands out in my mind: The shower is outside on the back patio. The shower is fitted with hot water from the conventional water heater plumbed from the house. The shower is surrounded by a stainless steel privacy screen and a lot of really tall tropical plants. It’s the one feature that friends and family seem to like the most about the cottage. But the county authorities said it was completely illegal. First, the county inspector cited the raw sewerage that was being released into the environment. By “raw sewerage” he was referring to warm soapy water. The “environment” in this case was my rural back garden. The remedy was to plumb the outdoor shower with a drain that carried the “sewerage” into the septic system for safe disposal. I had this work done at some considerable expense that I struggled to afford at the time. Then the inspector was invited back to final the plumbing permit. Unfortunately he cited the project for another violation instead. It seems that rain water was able to drain into the outdoor shower and enter the septic system which was a code violation. He couldn’t have told me this earlier? Evidently inspectors shy away from proscribing holistic solutions. Instead they just look at what’s in front of them and check off boxes on their clip boards. It’s up to the property owner to understand and comply with the impenetrable codes on their own. So I covered the outdoor shower with a simple roof that prevented the rain from entering the drain (completely ruining the whole concept of a tropical outdoor shower). When the inspector returned this too was a code violation since a covered structure with plumbing constitutes a second dwelling unit on a lot that is only zoned for one unit. I removed the roof from the shower in disgust. Finally a sympathetic neighbor said he had a similar problem with his outdoor shower and solved the problem by re-labeling it as a hose bib on the permit documents. I plugged up the shower drain with concrete, removed the shower head, and invited the inspector back to approve the hot and cold hose bibs inside the little privacy screen on the back patio. In fifteen seconds he was able to check off the little boxes on his clip board and there were no more problems with the outdoor shower. A sense of relief and calm washed over me. But it only lasted for ten seconds. The inspector then said he couldn’t sign off on the building inspection because this house didn’t have a shower or bath tub… source: https://granolashotgun.wordpress.com/2014/05/22/building-codes-and-the-self-built-mortgage-free-home/ https://granolashotgun.wordpress.com/2014/05/22/building-cod...
    - Loughla 2y ago
      In rural areas, which is where it seems like Clarkson's farm is located, there are no inspectors. They just don't exist. I expect building codes and nonsense like that in cities. But not in farms.
- inferiorhuman 2y ago
  Try having neighbors. I've one who thinks she's quite the environmentalist because she "feeds the deer", which means leaving fresh fruit and veg out. Sure the deer love it, but so do the rats (the neighbor blames the HOA landscaping for the rats). She also leaves out peanuts, so I constantly have squirrels and jays digging up my attempts at gardening things so they can bury their loot. The HOA copes by leaving poison traps out. Of course the coyotes and raptors don't know this and keep coming by anyhow. But hey, she's an environmentalist. Alternatively try living in an area with a high risk of fire. Leaving your back yard to grow wild could easily create a huge tinderbox. There are fire resistant plants suited to e.g. dry summers, but invasive stuff that's ill-suited to dry summers is just as happy to take root.
  - mock-possum 2y ago
    It sounds like you want to live in a place devoid of animals - deer, squirrels, rats, jays, coyotes, hawks - isn’t that a but cruel, considering they were here first?
    - inferiorhuman 2y ago
      No, it sounds like I don't want my neighbor feeding the wildlife. It sounds like I don't want the HOA to feel emboldened to set out poison traps to deal with the consequences of feeding wildlife. FWIW I said raptors, not hawks. So yeah. Owls, vultures, hawks, osprey, falcons, we get them all out here. When they eat a poisoned rodent they'll likely die. Scavengers that eat the dead birds will also get sick. It's bad all around. Deer are already overpopulated. None of what this person is setting out is particularly good for any of the animals. These are wild animals that are perfectly capable of finding their own, healthier, safer food. It's like with the monarchs. Folks should be careful about where they plant milkweed in part because of the disastrous effects it can have on their migration. The same thing can happen with vertebrates like migratory birds. There's a reason why feeding wildlife is pretty much universally condemned: it's bad for the animals. https://www.nps.gov/articles/000/idkt_feedingwildlife.htm https://www.nps.gov/articles/000/idkt_feedingwildlife.htm https://www.audubon.org/news/to-feed-or-not-feed https://www.audubon.org/news/to-feed-or-not-feed https://dec.ny.gov/nature/wildlife-health/do-not-feed-wildlife https://dec.ny.gov/nature/wildlife-health/do-not-feed-wildli... https://outdoor.wildlifeillinois.org/articles/revealed-the-damaging-effects-of-feeding-wildlife https://outdoor.wildlifeillinois.org/articles/revealed-the-d... https://www.fws.gov/story/feed-or-not-feed-wild-birds https://www.fws.gov/story/feed-or-not-feed-wild-birds
- bpodgursky 2y ago
  I'm not even this deferential towards my HOA which has actual yard rules. If they want to send the HOA police after me, feel free.
- akira2501 2y ago
  In several towns I've lived in.. I _know_ everyone in city hall. It wouldn't be a deferential call, but a friendly one, where I'd mostly ask "Hey Bill, would there ever be a problem if I...." Bill's got my back. If there was a problem, he'd be the first one to tell me _how_ to work around it, and since I'm the kind of guy to want to make things easy for everyone I live around, he'd probably be the first one to help do it if I needed it.
  - artursapek 2y ago
    I’m talking about the subject matter. Something as petty as growing some lawn or flowers on my own land. I can’t imagine asking for permission to do that.
    - akira2501 2y ago
      I'm talking about the realities of actually living in a community. Something as simple as not mowing your lawn may actually be against local codes. Your neighbors may be the type to use code enforcement against you if they don't like you. Your code enforcement officer may just be eager. There could be any of a number of simple misunderstandings along the way. Who knows? What I do know is you will solve nothing by pretending it's petty and for sheer prideful lack of imagination can't bring yourself to pick up a phone and spend 3 minutes asking questions.
  - freilanzer 2y ago
    This is the same thing. Imagine calling the local government to ask if there's a problem with letting my garden grow.
    - akira2501 2y ago
      Yes. I just did imagine it for you. Are you a lawyer? Do you spend time making yourself aware of the laws, bylaws and codes in effect in your area? If it makes you feel less burdened to check first, then at the very least, don't be one of the people who inevitably complains when they find out what they've done draws unwanted attention to yourself. It's government. You pay for it. Why you wouldn't expect it to be useful to you is beyond me.
- zo1 2y ago
  Not to be confrontational, but this example is super tiny in the grand scheme of things. Government at this point practically owns us. They take almost 50% of our labor via taxes (under the "noble" euphemism of paying for our fair share of government governing us.) They don't protect us from crime via police, they beat and imprison us if we stray from their stated path, and we have no choice to not participate. Yes we can technically choose to move to another king's domain and be serfs there. To be fair even this highly regulated legally and not an easy option for many. Honestly, we're way passed due for a revolution. The government has become a self serving and self perpetuating machine that uses people rather than serving them.
  - RoyalHenOil 2y ago
    I strongly suspect that most of this is a consequence of declining democratic participation, especially at the local level. When most people don't vote, it makes the government beholden only to those few who do — and they tend not to be a demographically representative bunch. This is the same issue that makes it so easy for HOAs to become heavy-handed or corrupt. One of the pleasant surprises I had, immigrating from the US to Australia, was discovering how much more responsive the government is to the populace, even at the municipal level. The big difference is that, here, virtually everyone votes in all elections at every level of government because it is considered a legal responsibility of citizenship, just like jury duty and taxes. This means that time-poor, lower-class single parents have exactly the same voting power as retired busybodies, and that makes a HUGE difference to how smoothly and fairly everything operates.
    - Workaccount2 2y ago
      It absolutely blows my mind that the US cannot even make election day a national holiday.
      - maxerickson 2y ago
        The US doesn't have any national holidays. We have federal and state holidays that specify that those government employees have those holidays, but private employers aren't required to do anything on those days (there might be some states that impose requirements, but certainly not a majority).
- latentcall 2y ago
  It reminds me of when a friend called into their property management at their apartment complex to make sure she could have three guests come over to her apartment to watch a movie. I don’t know what to call it. Maybe “proactive rule following”.
- jklinger410 2y ago
  Well, you don't get to decide whether or not you're going to pay the fines. Unless you want to sue them. Some people think it's best to just avoid the drama and ask first.
  - splwjs 2y ago
    "you can minimize the pain from overreach by thoroughly submitting to it so actually it's basically your fault if you don't like it"
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - artursapek 2y ago
    That’s a hilarious attitude

artursapek 2y ago

I can’t imagine being this deferential towards the government

Loughla 2y ago
I was just watching Clarkson's farm, and commenting on that. The town council tells him how he can and cannot use his farm. That just wouldn't fly here in my part of the States. A building would get burned down. I know it's a double edged sword, but the freedom to do what I want with my own space really is something I take for granted.
- no_wizard 2y ago
  Land use laws and culture around land use differ greatly. The further you get out from urban and suburban areas the less you typically encounter. Rural areas tend to have less land use laws than urban/ suburban areas.
- 5040 2y ago
  America is really bad for this sort of thing though? One example that stands out in my mind: The shower is outside on the back patio. The shower is fitted with hot water from the conventional water heater plumbed from the house. The shower is surrounded by a stainless steel privacy screen and a lot of really tall tropical plants. It’s the one feature that friends and family seem to like the most about the cottage. But the county authorities said it was completely illegal. First, the county inspector cited the raw sewerage that was being released into the environment. By “raw sewerage” he was referring to warm soapy water. The “environment” in this case was my rural back garden. The remedy was to plumb the outdoor shower with a drain that carried the “sewerage” into the septic system for safe disposal. I had this work done at some considerable expense that I struggled to afford at the time. Then the inspector was invited back to final the plumbing permit. Unfortunately he cited the project for another violation instead. It seems that rain water was able to drain into the outdoor shower and enter the septic system which was a code violation. He couldn’t have told me this earlier? Evidently inspectors shy away from proscribing holistic solutions. Instead they just look at what’s in front of them and check off boxes on their clip boards. It’s up to the property owner to understand and comply with the impenetrable codes on their own. So I covered the outdoor shower with a simple roof that prevented the rain from entering the drain (completely ruining the whole concept of a tropical outdoor shower). When the inspector returned this too was a code violation since a covered structure with plumbing constitutes a second dwelling unit on a lot that is only zoned for one unit. I removed the roof from the shower in disgust. Finally a sympathetic neighbor said he had a similar problem with his outdoor shower and solved the problem by re-labeling it as a hose bib on the permit documents. I plugged up the shower drain with concrete, removed the shower head, and invited the inspector back to approve the hot and cold hose bibs inside the little privacy screen on the back patio. In fifteen seconds he was able to check off the little boxes on his clip board and there were no more problems with the outdoor shower. A sense of relief and calm washed over me. But it only lasted for ten seconds. The inspector then said he couldn’t sign off on the building inspection because this house didn’t have a shower or bath tub… source: https://granolashotgun.wordpress.com/2014/05/22/building-codes-and-the-self-built-mortgage-free-home/ https://granolashotgun.wordpress.com/2014/05/22/building-cod...
  - Loughla 2y ago
    In rural areas, which is where it seems like Clarkson's farm is located, there are no inspectors. They just don't exist. I expect building codes and nonsense like that in cities. But not in farms.
inferiorhuman 2y ago
Try having neighbors. I've one who thinks she's quite the environmentalist because she "feeds the deer", which means leaving fresh fruit and veg out. Sure the deer love it, but so do the rats (the neighbor blames the HOA landscaping for the rats). She also leaves out peanuts, so I constantly have squirrels and jays digging up my attempts at gardening things so they can bury their loot. The HOA copes by leaving poison traps out. Of course the coyotes and raptors don't know this and keep coming by anyhow. But hey, she's an environmentalist. Alternatively try living in an area with a high risk of fire. Leaving your back yard to grow wild could easily create a huge tinderbox. There are fire resistant plants suited to e.g. dry summers, but invasive stuff that's ill-suited to dry summers is just as happy to take root.
- mock-possum 2y ago
  It sounds like you want to live in a place devoid of animals - deer, squirrels, rats, jays, coyotes, hawks - isn’t that a but cruel, considering they were here first?
  - inferiorhuman 2y ago
    No, it sounds like I don't want my neighbor feeding the wildlife. It sounds like I don't want the HOA to feel emboldened to set out poison traps to deal with the consequences of feeding wildlife. FWIW I said raptors, not hawks. So yeah. Owls, vultures, hawks, osprey, falcons, we get them all out here. When they eat a poisoned rodent they'll likely die. Scavengers that eat the dead birds will also get sick. It's bad all around. Deer are already overpopulated. None of what this person is setting out is particularly good for any of the animals. These are wild animals that are perfectly capable of finding their own, healthier, safer food. It's like with the monarchs. Folks should be careful about where they plant milkweed in part because of the disastrous effects it can have on their migration. The same thing can happen with vertebrates like migratory birds. There's a reason why feeding wildlife is pretty much universally condemned: it's bad for the animals. https://www.nps.gov/articles/000/idkt_feedingwildlife.htm https://www.nps.gov/articles/000/idkt_feedingwildlife.htm https://www.audubon.org/news/to-feed-or-not-feed https://www.audubon.org/news/to-feed-or-not-feed https://dec.ny.gov/nature/wildlife-health/do-not-feed-wildlife https://dec.ny.gov/nature/wildlife-health/do-not-feed-wildli... https://outdoor.wildlifeillinois.org/articles/revealed-the-damaging-effects-of-feeding-wildlife https://outdoor.wildlifeillinois.org/articles/revealed-the-d... https://www.fws.gov/story/feed-or-not-feed-wild-birds https://www.fws.gov/story/feed-or-not-feed-wild-birds
bpodgursky 2y ago
I'm not even this deferential towards my HOA which has actual yard rules. If they want to send the HOA police after me, feel free.
akira2501 2y ago
In several towns I've lived in.. I _know_ everyone in city hall. It wouldn't be a deferential call, but a friendly one, where I'd mostly ask "Hey Bill, would there ever be a problem if I...." Bill's got my back. If there was a problem, he'd be the first one to tell me _how_ to work around it, and since I'm the kind of guy to want to make things easy for everyone I live around, he'd probably be the first one to help do it if I needed it.
- artursapek 2y ago
  I’m talking about the subject matter. Something as petty as growing some lawn or flowers on my own land. I can’t imagine asking for permission to do that.
  - akira2501 2y ago
    I'm talking about the realities of actually living in a community. Something as simple as not mowing your lawn may actually be against local codes. Your neighbors may be the type to use code enforcement against you if they don't like you. Your code enforcement officer may just be eager. There could be any of a number of simple misunderstandings along the way. Who knows? What I do know is you will solve nothing by pretending it's petty and for sheer prideful lack of imagination can't bring yourself to pick up a phone and spend 3 minutes asking questions.
- freilanzer 2y ago
  This is the same thing. Imagine calling the local government to ask if there's a problem with letting my garden grow.
  - akira2501 2y ago
    Yes. I just did imagine it for you. Are you a lawyer? Do you spend time making yourself aware of the laws, bylaws and codes in effect in your area? If it makes you feel less burdened to check first, then at the very least, don't be one of the people who inevitably complains when they find out what they've done draws unwanted attention to yourself. It's government. You pay for it. Why you wouldn't expect it to be useful to you is beyond me.
zo1 2y ago
Not to be confrontational, but this example is super tiny in the grand scheme of things. Government at this point practically owns us. They take almost 50% of our labor via taxes (under the "noble" euphemism of paying for our fair share of government governing us.) They don't protect us from crime via police, they beat and imprison us if we stray from their stated path, and we have no choice to not participate. Yes we can technically choose to move to another king's domain and be serfs there. To be fair even this highly regulated legally and not an easy option for many. Honestly, we're way passed due for a revolution. The government has become a self serving and self perpetuating machine that uses people rather than serving them.
- RoyalHenOil 2y ago
  I strongly suspect that most of this is a consequence of declining democratic participation, especially at the local level. When most people don't vote, it makes the government beholden only to those few who do — and they tend not to be a demographically representative bunch. This is the same issue that makes it so easy for HOAs to become heavy-handed or corrupt. One of the pleasant surprises I had, immigrating from the US to Australia, was discovering how much more responsive the government is to the populace, even at the municipal level. The big difference is that, here, virtually everyone votes in all elections at every level of government because it is considered a legal responsibility of citizenship, just like jury duty and taxes. This means that time-poor, lower-class single parents have exactly the same voting power as retired busybodies, and that makes a HUGE difference to how smoothly and fairly everything operates.
  - Workaccount2 2y ago
    It absolutely blows my mind that the US cannot even make election day a national holiday.
    - maxerickson 2y ago
      The US doesn't have any national holidays. We have federal and state holidays that specify that those government employees have those holidays, but private employers aren't required to do anything on those days (there might be some states that impose requirements, but certainly not a majority).
latentcall 2y ago
It reminds me of when a friend called into their property management at their apartment complex to make sure she could have three guests come over to her apartment to watch a movie. I don’t know what to call it. Maybe “proactive rule following”.
jklinger410 2y ago
Well, you don't get to decide whether or not you're going to pay the fines. Unless you want to sue them. Some people think it's best to just avoid the drama and ask first.
- splwjs 2y ago
  "you can minimize the pain from overreach by thoroughly submitting to it so actually it's basically your fault if you don't like it"
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- artursapek 2y ago
  That’s a hilarious attitude