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I’m one of the paying Kagi customer who wants to make Kagi my default iOS search engine, but cannot. It’s maddening that even though I paid for both my iPhone /

I’m one of the paying Kagi customer who wants to make Kagi my default iOS search engine, but cannot. It’s maddening that even though I paid for both my iPhone / iPad and for Kagi, Apple for some reason makes it impossible for me to make this choice (that I already made by paying for Kagi). On Chrome at least this is possible, even if it’s additional steps (I have not used the extension though there.)

te_chris 2y ago
Some few billion reasons*
hcurtiss 2y ago
I too am a paying customer. Surprisingly -- at least to me -- it's easy to do with Microsoft's Edge browser on iOS. I use it as default on both iOS and macOS.
- everfrustrated 2y ago
  It's only easy now because Microsoft had a lot of runs in with the US and EU regulators on this specific issue in the past.
  - lozenge 2y ago
    And because MS wants to increase its userbase on IOS and macOS. Meanwhile Windows Start Menu is locked to Edge and Bing.
    - rkagerer 2y ago
      Meanwhile Windows Start Menu is locked to Edge and Bing Why does software suck these days.
      - fragmede 2y ago
        Because the money for it is stuck in weird places. I can't write some small bit of software and just sell that for a decent price. People don't pay for software these days, so my best hope is to give it away for free and then running ads. And then, if it's any good, someone will come by and make an open source clone and give that away for free, tanking sales/ad revenue. So the money in writing software is by working at a huge company that has found money with software, like Google and selling ads.
        mh- 2y ago
        This is really the most concise (and depressing) explanation of the situation I've seen. When I was a kid, I dreamt of being a solo programmer that had a few successful desktop programs. Think mIRC, WinAmp, WinRar. Despite the audience for that being >100x larger than it was in the 90s, I'd bet the number of solo shops doing that successfully isn't a whole lot larger than it was then.
        b3ing 2y ago
        People would buy Windows. That was one of the few things I bought
    - 10tacobytes 2y ago
      Correct. Minute userbase equals no leverage to extract tolls. If they ended up with the sort of dominant position they had at one point with IE on Mac they'd do this very thing and more. There aren't many shenanigans that MS didn't pioneer in the 90s.
    - dmnmnm 2y ago
      > Meanwhile Windows Start Menu is locked to Bing Not in the EU market. They recently decoupled that part (search, but I don't know if they did it for edge too) and made bing in the start menu a store app that can be uninstalled if you don't want it to be available on your system anymore. And are providing APIs for others to use: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-gb/windows/apps/develop/search/search-providers https://learn.microsoft.com/en-gb/windows/apps/develop/searc... The only reason why you can't use google there is because.. Google doesn't care. Just like how they never released apps for the Windows Phone store, they have no intention of touching the one on Windows. Microsoft has been hit so many times by the EU that they really care to respect our regulations now. Not just the "letter of the law" but the "spirit of the law" too. The same should (or has already happened, I don't know.. because I actually use Edge and didn't care to look deeper into it) happen for Edge: https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/5/23859537/microsoft-windows-11-default-browser-links-eu-eea-changes https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/5/23859537/microsoft-windows... Of note, among the things that have changed recently in Windows 11, you can disable the news page from msn on Widgets, and Teams is no longer a part of Windows.
      - lozenge 2y ago
        I expect Google will release their implementation when the Windows feature gets into stable. Implementing something 9 years after Windows 10 is released doesn't show "respecting the EU" to me.
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> I’m one of the paying Kagi customer who wants to make Kagi my default iOS search engine, but cannot FYI, there is a workaround [1]. It's trash that Apple makes us do this. But you can. Granted, it nudged me to switch to Orion as my main desktop browser. [1] https://help.kagi.com/kagi/getting-started/setting-default.html#setting_up_extension_safari_ios https://help.kagi.com/kagi/getting-started/setting-default.h...
- kemiller 2y ago
  How’s the stability on Orion lately? I want to use it be plugin compatible was too dicey.
  - shepherdjerred 2y ago
    Orion crashed way too often for me. I used Orion for a month or two and switched back to Firefox in early July.
    - nerdponx 2y ago
      Been using it for months on MacOS without a single crash.
      - shepherdjerred 2y ago
        Weird. I don't remember if there was a pattern or not. Maybe there's a specific site that causes it. I'll give it another try later this year.
  - justinclift 2y ago
    So far (only an occasional user) it's been solid for me. Though I've only been using it in depth every few weeks, and that's mostly to read manga online while waiting for stuff.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > How’s the stability on Orion lately? Very good. My only gripes are with the 1Password extension.
immibis 2y ago
You chose to buy a platform with severe restrictions. It's not like we can blame monopoly power, because Android phones are easy to get. It was legitimately your choice - it seems like for some reason you wanted the restrictions.
- usr1106 2y ago
  Choice seems to be an euphemism for everything related to private IT: For PCs there is Microsoft vs Apple. (I use Linux, but that's not for the broad masses currently.) For phones you either pay a premium to enter the Apple walled garden or you prostitute your digital life and get spied on by Google and its advertising cancer. What would we say if there were only 2 car makers, 2 grocery chains, 2 companies building houses?
  - paulryanrogers 2y ago
    > What would we say if there were only 2 car makers, 2 grocery chains, 2 companies building houses? We'd argue endlessly because of pedantry over 'monopoly', whilst the oligopolists sell us down the river.
    - plausibility 2y ago
      Look no further for evidence than New Zealand. There are two major grocery store chains (Foodstuffs, who own New World, Four Square, and Pak n Save) and Woolworths Group -- obviously we have the smaller Asian marts and produce stores too, but most people only have one of the big stores nearby to their towns. There are two major building materials suppliers (Carters and Fletchers). There's one manufacturer of drywall (Gib) that is easier to get council plan approval for than any other cheaper manufacturers of drywall because they provide some material strength documents that saves the councils some engineering review time and effort. We technically have 4 major banks, but 3 of them are just offshoots of big Australian banks and siphon the insane profits offshore. The government keeps making investigation commissions into breaking these up, but doesn't do anything. The companies just point fingers back and forth at each other blaming "the competition" for price gouging. Meanwhile the recommendation from the politicians is we cut back on avocado toast, lattes, and our Netflix subscription.
Malp 2y ago
I recommend trying out Quiche Browser on iOS, or Orion from Kagi- both will support Kagi as a search option. Spotlight search still goes to Google, but I find that acceptable.
tracerbulletx 2y ago
"for some reason" (the reason was 20 billion per year in cash)
- chatmasta 2y ago
  I’m surprised that it’s just Google getting hit with this enforcement and not Apple too.
  - azemetre 2y ago
    This lawsuit will likely be used for further litigation in other companies. About time too, nothing more undemocratic than unregulated monopolies.

te_chris 2y ago

Some few billion reasons*

hcurtiss 2y ago

I too am a paying customer. Surprisingly -- at least to me -- it's easy to do with Microsoft's Edge browser on iOS. I use it as default on both iOS and macOS.

everfrustrated 2y ago
It's only easy now because Microsoft had a lot of runs in with the US and EU regulators on this specific issue in the past.
- lozenge 2y ago
  And because MS wants to increase its userbase on IOS and macOS. Meanwhile Windows Start Menu is locked to Edge and Bing.
  - rkagerer 2y ago
    Meanwhile Windows Start Menu is locked to Edge and Bing Why does software suck these days.
    - fragmede 2y ago
      Because the money for it is stuck in weird places. I can't write some small bit of software and just sell that for a decent price. People don't pay for software these days, so my best hope is to give it away for free and then running ads. And then, if it's any good, someone will come by and make an open source clone and give that away for free, tanking sales/ad revenue. So the money in writing software is by working at a huge company that has found money with software, like Google and selling ads.
      - mh- 2y ago
        This is really the most concise (and depressing) explanation of the situation I've seen. When I was a kid, I dreamt of being a solo programmer that had a few successful desktop programs. Think mIRC, WinAmp, WinRar. Despite the audience for that being >100x larger than it was in the 90s, I'd bet the number of solo shops doing that successfully isn't a whole lot larger than it was then.
      - b3ing 2y ago
        People would buy Windows. That was one of the few things I bought
  - 10tacobytes 2y ago
    Correct. Minute userbase equals no leverage to extract tolls. If they ended up with the sort of dominant position they had at one point with IE on Mac they'd do this very thing and more. There aren't many shenanigans that MS didn't pioneer in the 90s.
  - dmnmnm 2y ago
    > Meanwhile Windows Start Menu is locked to Bing Not in the EU market. They recently decoupled that part (search, but I don't know if they did it for edge too) and made bing in the start menu a store app that can be uninstalled if you don't want it to be available on your system anymore. And are providing APIs for others to use: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-gb/windows/apps/develop/search/search-providers https://learn.microsoft.com/en-gb/windows/apps/develop/searc... The only reason why you can't use google there is because.. Google doesn't care. Just like how they never released apps for the Windows Phone store, they have no intention of touching the one on Windows. Microsoft has been hit so many times by the EU that they really care to respect our regulations now. Not just the "letter of the law" but the "spirit of the law" too. The same should (or has already happened, I don't know.. because I actually use Edge and didn't care to look deeper into it) happen for Edge: https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/5/23859537/microsoft-windows-11-default-browser-links-eu-eea-changes https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/5/23859537/microsoft-windows... Of note, among the things that have changed recently in Windows 11, you can disable the news page from msn on Widgets, and Teams is no longer a part of Windows.
    - lozenge 2y ago
      I expect Google will release their implementation when the Windows feature gets into stable. Implementing something 9 years after Windows 10 is released doesn't show "respecting the EU" to me.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> I’m one of the paying Kagi customer who wants to make Kagi my default iOS search engine, but cannot FYI, there is a workaround [1]. It's trash that Apple makes us do this. But you can. Granted, it nudged me to switch to Orion as my main desktop browser. [1] https://help.kagi.com/kagi/getting-started/setting-default.html#setting_up_extension_safari_ios https://help.kagi.com/kagi/getting-started/setting-default.h...

kemiller 2y ago
How’s the stability on Orion lately? I want to use it be plugin compatible was too dicey.
- shepherdjerred 2y ago
  Orion crashed way too often for me. I used Orion for a month or two and switched back to Firefox in early July.
  - nerdponx 2y ago
    Been using it for months on MacOS without a single crash.
    - shepherdjerred 2y ago
      Weird. I don't remember if there was a pattern or not. Maybe there's a specific site that causes it. I'll give it another try later this year.
- justinclift 2y ago
  So far (only an occasional user) it's been solid for me. Though I've only been using it in depth every few weeks, and that's mostly to read manga online while waiting for stuff.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > How’s the stability on Orion lately? Very good. My only gripes are with the 1Password extension.

immibis 2y ago

You chose to buy a platform with severe restrictions. It's not like we can blame monopoly power, because Android phones are easy to get. It was legitimately your choice - it seems like for some reason you wanted the restrictions.

usr1106 2y ago
Choice seems to be an euphemism for everything related to private IT: For PCs there is Microsoft vs Apple. (I use Linux, but that's not for the broad masses currently.) For phones you either pay a premium to enter the Apple walled garden or you prostitute your digital life and get spied on by Google and its advertising cancer. What would we say if there were only 2 car makers, 2 grocery chains, 2 companies building houses?
- paulryanrogers 2y ago
  > What would we say if there were only 2 car makers, 2 grocery chains, 2 companies building houses? We'd argue endlessly because of pedantry over 'monopoly', whilst the oligopolists sell us down the river.
  - plausibility 2y ago
    Look no further for evidence than New Zealand. There are two major grocery store chains (Foodstuffs, who own New World, Four Square, and Pak n Save) and Woolworths Group -- obviously we have the smaller Asian marts and produce stores too, but most people only have one of the big stores nearby to their towns. There are two major building materials suppliers (Carters and Fletchers). There's one manufacturer of drywall (Gib) that is easier to get council plan approval for than any other cheaper manufacturers of drywall because they provide some material strength documents that saves the councils some engineering review time and effort. We technically have 4 major banks, but 3 of them are just offshoots of big Australian banks and siphon the insane profits offshore. The government keeps making investigation commissions into breaking these up, but doesn't do anything. The companies just point fingers back and forth at each other blaming "the competition" for price gouging. Meanwhile the recommendation from the politicians is we cut back on avocado toast, lattes, and our Netflix subscription.

Malp 2y ago

I recommend trying out Quiche Browser on iOS, or Orion from Kagi- both will support Kagi as a search option. Spotlight search still goes to Google, but I find that acceptable.

tracerbulletx 2y ago

"for some reason" (the reason was 20 billion per year in cash)

chatmasta 2y ago
I’m surprised that it’s just Google getting hit with this enforcement and not Apple too.
- azemetre 2y ago
  This lawsuit will likely be used for further litigation in other companies. About time too, nothing more undemocratic than unregulated monopolies.