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Would an 'explosively pumped flux compression generator' disrupt electronics within a drone? Also do many drones use GPS / dead-reckoning and follow pre-guided

Would an 'explosively pumped flux compression generator' disrupt electronics within a drone? Also do many drones use GPS / dead-reckoning and follow pre-guided paths, to avoid need for comms. Came across - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fgcxDRti5s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fgcxDRti5s recently which uses an array of IMUs and filtering, to they claim get accuracy similar to a fibre optic gyro.

jerf 2y ago
If someone says they're immune to RF jamming, I naturally interpret that from the perspective of blocking communication. I don't necessarily expect that they're claiming to be immune to EMP blasts straight-up destroying the electronics.
- idunnoman1222 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - mschuster91 2y ago
    > You are envisioning a tech that does not exist Nuclear blasts can cause EMPs [1]. This is honestly the thing I am most scared about someone trying in a WW3 scenario - one high altitude EMP for Europe, one for North America, and everyone not in the military is back to the digital stone age. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_electromagnetic_pulse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_electromagnetic_pulse
    - krisoft 2y ago
      > This is honestly the thing I am most scared about someone trying in a WW3 scenario Interesting. The most scared I'm in that situation is suffering 3rd degree burns at the same time everyone else does in a few tens of kilometer radius. Or you know what would be even worse? Not suffering that injury personally, but trying to ease the last hours of friends and family who did. That feels like it would suck more than getting back to the digital stone age.
      - jerf 2y ago
        A nuclear weapon used in an EMP configuration is not the same thing as one used on the ground. Read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_electromagnetic_pulse#Starfish_Prime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_electromagnetic_pulse#... more carefully and consider the implications. A nuke detonated for this purpose would kill no one... directly. Is the fear overblown? I don't know. Nuclear has a long history of people grotesquely over-exaggerating the dangers. Makes it hard to tell. But even if it took 10 aerial-burst nukes to take out a country rather than just one, it's still a rather effective way to use the arsenal right now, arguably more effectively than detonating them on the ground. And it tightens the defense window quite a bit.
        krisoft 2y ago
        I don’t understand your argument. > A nuke detonated for this purpose would kill no one... directly. Yes. I’m aware of that fact. And that is why I fear an EMP less than the alternatives. Don’t get me wrong. It would suck. But it would suck in a “gosh the economy just collapsed, and there is a good chance we will starve or freeze in the next few months/years” sense. Which is less bad than the alternative where they bomb cities and millions of people like you and me die in incredible agony hours/days after the bomb. And that is why i fear the second more. Things like where the hospitals are so overwhelmed that your burn treatment involves moving you to a field where your screams won’t bother others as much. Or a situation where we have to stop euthanizing mortaly wounded people because we run out of bullets (locally). > Is the fear overblown? I don’t know if your fear of the EMP is overblown. Probably not. I know my fear of a conventionally employed nuclear weapon is not overblown because we have the data from Hiroshima and Nagasaki and it is not pretty. I for one know which one I fear more and it is not the EMP. Of course this is all quite academic because by all chance they will choose to do both.
  - Etheryte 2y ago
    EMPs have existed since the 40s, it's just the lucky fact that no one wants to start nuclear war that we don't see them in use.
    - cryptonector 2y ago
      You don't need a nuke to create a small EMP. But you do need a high power source.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - idunnoman1222 2y ago
        [flagged]
    - jerf 2y ago
      It's not just nuclear bombs. Contra idunnoman1222's confidently wrong declaration, what anfractuosity referred to is well-established stuff around for decades, not some weirdo fringe thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_pumped_flux_compression_generator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_pumped_flux_compre... A lot of sci fi has "EMP grenades". I don't believe they've been declassified but I'd bet something like them exist. Whether they're quite down to "grenade" size I don't know, though my gut leans "yes". Most people's intuitions about what is possible in what volume of space are tuned for machines we want to be able to use and reuse. If you don't mind destroying the machine in the process, which you've already accepted if you're using the explosively-pumped flux compression generator, you have some options for generating a lot of charge very quickly in a small space, and there are people with experience using them in other applications out there to be hired.
      - idunnoman1222 2y ago
        [flagged]
    - idunnoman1222 2y ago
      [flagged]
  - GartzenDeHaes 2y ago
    'explosively pumped flux compression generator', is an EMP generator I think.
kaibee 2y ago
> Came across - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fgcxDRti5s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fgcxDRti5s recently which uses an array of IMUs and filtering, to they claim get accuracy similar to a fibre optic gyro. I had this idea a few years ago when I was learning about VR position tracking issues stuff. Kinda surprised this wasn't a thing immediately after the first MEMS gyro honestly?
icegreentea2 2y ago
The data link for the drones is critical for many of the drones functionality. a) Many drones still are being used for ISR (intelligence gathering). Live feed is valuable. Solving the navigation/guidance problem with dead reckoning doesn't let you solve the intelligence issue. b) Turning FPV drones back into fire and forget munitions kinda robs them of their value proposition. We -already had- smart munitions that could be fired more or less unobserved into an area, and which could then more or less autonomously select and attack its own targets. FPV drones (in some applications) let you have part of that functionality (you can launch an attack into a general area without knowing precisely what you're aiming at, while still getting pretty precise terminal guidance) at substantially less cost (though granted the cost savings are coming from a variety of factors, not just the sensor portion).
- anfractuosity 2y ago
  Yeah, they're very good points regarding the live feed.
slobiwan 2y ago
Using GPS doesn't mean you can't be jammed. GPS is quite low power and easy to jam, and feasible to spoof[1]. [1] https://www.newscientist.com/article/2415318-ukraine-will-spoof-gps-across-the-country-to-stop-russian-drones/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/2415318-ukraine-will-sp...
- anfractuosity 2y ago
  No, that's true, I was under the impression there is an encrypted version though. Was thinking that could be combined with dead reckoning.

jerf 2y ago

If someone says they're immune to RF jamming, I naturally interpret that from the perspective of blocking communication. I don't necessarily expect that they're claiming to be immune to EMP blasts straight-up destroying the electronics.

idunnoman1222 2y ago
[flagged]
- mschuster91 2y ago
  > You are envisioning a tech that does not exist Nuclear blasts can cause EMPs [1]. This is honestly the thing I am most scared about someone trying in a WW3 scenario - one high altitude EMP for Europe, one for North America, and everyone not in the military is back to the digital stone age. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_electromagnetic_pulse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_electromagnetic_pulse
  - krisoft 2y ago
    > This is honestly the thing I am most scared about someone trying in a WW3 scenario Interesting. The most scared I'm in that situation is suffering 3rd degree burns at the same time everyone else does in a few tens of kilometer radius. Or you know what would be even worse? Not suffering that injury personally, but trying to ease the last hours of friends and family who did. That feels like it would suck more than getting back to the digital stone age.
    - jerf 2y ago
      A nuclear weapon used in an EMP configuration is not the same thing as one used on the ground. Read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_electromagnetic_pulse#Starfish_Prime https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_electromagnetic_pulse#... more carefully and consider the implications. A nuke detonated for this purpose would kill no one... directly. Is the fear overblown? I don't know. Nuclear has a long history of people grotesquely over-exaggerating the dangers. Makes it hard to tell. But even if it took 10 aerial-burst nukes to take out a country rather than just one, it's still a rather effective way to use the arsenal right now, arguably more effectively than detonating them on the ground. And it tightens the defense window quite a bit.
      - krisoft 2y ago
        I don’t understand your argument. > A nuke detonated for this purpose would kill no one... directly. Yes. I’m aware of that fact. And that is why I fear an EMP less than the alternatives. Don’t get me wrong. It would suck. But it would suck in a “gosh the economy just collapsed, and there is a good chance we will starve or freeze in the next few months/years” sense. Which is less bad than the alternative where they bomb cities and millions of people like you and me die in incredible agony hours/days after the bomb. And that is why i fear the second more. Things like where the hospitals are so overwhelmed that your burn treatment involves moving you to a field where your screams won’t bother others as much. Or a situation where we have to stop euthanizing mortaly wounded people because we run out of bullets (locally). > Is the fear overblown? I don’t know if your fear of the EMP is overblown. Probably not. I know my fear of a conventionally employed nuclear weapon is not overblown because we have the data from Hiroshima and Nagasaki and it is not pretty. I for one know which one I fear more and it is not the EMP. Of course this is all quite academic because by all chance they will choose to do both.
- Etheryte 2y ago
  EMPs have existed since the 40s, it's just the lucky fact that no one wants to start nuclear war that we don't see them in use.
  - cryptonector 2y ago
    You don't need a nuke to create a small EMP. But you do need a high power source.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - idunnoman1222 2y ago
      [flagged]
  - jerf 2y ago
    It's not just nuclear bombs. Contra idunnoman1222's confidently wrong declaration, what anfractuosity referred to is well-established stuff around for decades, not some weirdo fringe thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_pumped_flux_compression_generator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_pumped_flux_compre... A lot of sci fi has "EMP grenades". I don't believe they've been declassified but I'd bet something like them exist. Whether they're quite down to "grenade" size I don't know, though my gut leans "yes". Most people's intuitions about what is possible in what volume of space are tuned for machines we want to be able to use and reuse. If you don't mind destroying the machine in the process, which you've already accepted if you're using the explosively-pumped flux compression generator, you have some options for generating a lot of charge very quickly in a small space, and there are people with experience using them in other applications out there to be hired.
    - idunnoman1222 2y ago
      [flagged]
  - idunnoman1222 2y ago
    [flagged]
- GartzenDeHaes 2y ago
  'explosively pumped flux compression generator', is an EMP generator I think.

kaibee 2y ago

> Came across - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fgcxDRti5s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fgcxDRti5s recently which uses an array of IMUs and filtering, to they claim get accuracy similar to a fibre optic gyro. I had this idea a few years ago when I was learning about VR position tracking issues stuff. Kinda surprised this wasn't a thing immediately after the first MEMS gyro honestly?

icegreentea2 2y ago

The data link for the drones is critical for many of the drones functionality. a) Many drones still are being used for ISR (intelligence gathering). Live feed is valuable. Solving the navigation/guidance problem with dead reckoning doesn't let you solve the intelligence issue. b) Turning FPV drones back into fire and forget munitions kinda robs them of their value proposition. We -already had- smart munitions that could be fired more or less unobserved into an area, and which could then more or less autonomously select and attack its own targets. FPV drones (in some applications) let you have part of that functionality (you can launch an attack into a general area without knowing precisely what you're aiming at, while still getting pretty precise terminal guidance) at substantially less cost (though granted the cost savings are coming from a variety of factors, not just the sensor portion).

anfractuosity 2y ago
Yeah, they're very good points regarding the live feed.

slobiwan 2y ago

Using GPS doesn't mean you can't be jammed. GPS is quite low power and easy to jam, and feasible to spoof[1]. [1] https://www.newscientist.com/article/2415318-ukraine-will-spoof-gps-across-the-country-to-stop-russian-drones/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/2415318-ukraine-will-sp...

anfractuosity 2y ago
No, that's true, I was under the impression there is an encrypted version though. Was thinking that could be combined with dead reckoning.